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AWD Conversion ForumThis forum is to help with the recent advent of new AWD conversions. Got a question? Ask it here. Got an answer? Drop the knowledge here
What you guys didn't read from his previous post was that, he wants to do it his way. The correct way would be to order the proper rear sub frame, remove current rear subframe, weld on new subframe and be done. Get the proper lca's as well.
or
Support bearing way too in front regarding the diff. It is shorter than a stock CRV in placement. Go back to the drawing board.
Diff mounts too stiff This isn't much of a factor on the driveshaft issues. If anything it is helping keep things in line rather than alowing axial play.
Axles not straight. Can't disagree there, but he knows and has known it is far from ideal and understands the risk. Either way, if it's not binding, how does this matter to a u-joint?
All above causes excessive bent forces on all components, when all is meant to rotate and you yaw it. Don't be surprised when it breaks. Yes and no, see above. I have broken u-joints without any modifications to the driveline or suspension. This isn't what is going on here.
Check the bushings on the diff are not too stiff. Top diff bushings, you haven't put on top of diff but at the ends of the support bar. So no space the diff to flex. And this is needed. The only reason the differential mounting location needs to be able to flex is to help save the case from breaking at the mounting points. You can easily stiffen the mounts but it will just add more stress onto the next weakest link. Last time I checked the driveshaft essentially only applies rotational forces to the differential. The CRV design does not "pitch and yaw" like a solid axle does. This energy is taken care of by the axles and suspension. The differential being on an essentially "floating mount system" is to reduce harmonics heard and felt inside the cabin.
Further in the launch, the diff tries to rotate opposite to the axle rotation to the back, at the same time center bearing is overextended and has a limited play till it hit a sort of a bump stop. First part is true, but the second part makes no sense and doesn't support the earlier statement. I already previously explained that the front joint is exactly the same as a CV joint found in the front or the rear. The carrier bearing is exactly that, a support bearing for the length of the driveshaft. Being over extended will only make the shaft / spider / rollers pull out of the cup and either shatter it or strip the end. Still, won't break a u-joint as the weak point is now the broken joint.
Shafts are at heavy angle adding additional yaw forces to the diff, therefore the U joint is excessively stressed to act more as a bar. So on snaps. True, the axle shafts are at an extreme angle, but this doesn't break a u-joint unless they bind or something of that nature. CV joints can typically be at very extreme angles before they bind, and I doubt that was what happening as it appears to be a forward launch. The driveshaft (propeller shaft) actually looks to be within the 3° range that is recommended for longevity. You can typically get away with up to 7° and still be fine.
Your last part of your statement goes against your previous stand point on the differential being too stiff. How is the axles moving enough to break the driveshaft if the differential isn't moving? LMFAO!
Lucky you didn't broke the diff case. True, but this is a possibility with even a stock CRV. You don't get out much do you?
Now that you have applied the Newton's 2nd law of motion, to all the rotating assembly, time to stop and open the thick books.
Believe me I really wish you to succeed, that's why I am so critical.
For a moment you need to forget all you have read in the www, and begin using more common logic, rather than follow someone's steps, and false encouragement.
And most important, before you take any step, spend only few clicks more before actually do it.
You will be surprised where reconsideration leads. I seriously think you need to take your own advice before giving out half truth advice. It appears you have no first hand experience with most of the stuff you have been spouting.
Sorry guys but all you encouraging Darry to make wrong turns, just doesn't play fair. ...and giving him BS Advice is better? Riiiiight....
First rule be honest,
Second, go straight to the point.
Third, think three times before you open your mouth or grab the saw Again, if the shoe fits, wear it. Just remember, when you point the finger at someone, there are three fingers pointing right back at yourself.
Just being honest. Yeah, me too.
Time for bacon and eggs. Sizzle, sizzle, pop, pop...
All of my responses are in BOLD. IF you want to continue, then PM me.
Seriously guy, why do you continously dilute Darry's thread with nonsense BS? We get it, you read some stuff online and have tried to become the ultimate keyboard warrior. Make your own thread and share with the world your "ultimate knowledge" that you think you have... or better yet, actually build a car. Excuses don't cut it, put up or shut up.
PS - Sorry DarryCar for mudding up your thread even more, but this guy has gotten on my nerves. I only come back to this forum for this thread.
or
Support bearing way too in front regarding the diff.
Diff mounts too stiff
Axles not straight.
Not sure what "support bearing" you are referring to. Yes the diff mounts are stiff, and yes the axles are not straight. This is the design I am going with at this time until I discover that it is absolutely not functional. The CR-V u-joints are notorious for coming apart even in stock trim. They are dinky and I knew they wouldn't last long with my set-up anyways, but I did want to see how much they could take. Now I know.
Originally Posted by jryKC
Here is some more "false encouragement" for you OP...
I love this project! Its the only one that I actively follow on HT. Keep up the hard work even if it leads to failure sometimes. I can't wait to see the final results.
Thank you for your interest in my project and sticking with it. If you ever get the time, look around and you will find a lot of great projects that are on HT. I don't know how many I have subscribed to. They all have something useful to offer IMO. I'll stick with it, and you will see results.
What you guys didn't read from his previous post was that, he wants to do it his way. The correct way would be to order the proper rear sub frame, remove current rear subframe, weld on new subframe and be done. Get the proper lca's as well.
Thank you, I do have a plan. If it doesn't work, then the plan changes. Yes this is one correct way to do it, but not the only correct way. And there are no "proper lca's" for this set-up really. LCAs are not the problem. Maybe you mean RTAs in which the only available ones to us here are from the CR-V or the '87-89 Civic RT4WD. The CR-V RTAs are huge and would require you to completely remake the rear strut towers so that you can move the mounting points to the rear. The Civic RT4WD RTA's are too long requiring one to have to cut a section out of them and weld them back together to fit. Either way you are talking about a lot of custom fab work. There's no easy way around this unless you can actually source RTSi parts, which I cannot.
Originally Posted by OneBadTurboCRV
All of my responses are in BOLD. IF you want to continue, then PM me.
Seriously guy, why do you continously dilute Darry's thread with nonsense BS? We get it, you read some stuff online and have tried to become the ultimate keyboard warrior. Make your own thread and share with the world your "ultimate knowledge" that you think you have... or better yet, actually build a car. Excuses don't cut it, put up or shut up.
PS - Sorry DarryCar for mudding up your thread even more, but this guy has gotten on my nerves. I only come back to this forum for this thread.
Hey no worries, I could not have said it better myself. No seriously, I couldn't. Everyone is going to have their opinions on how something SHOULD be done. Until you actually go out there and put the work in, you really don't have a clue. This is also another reason for doing this thread, so people can see what works and what doesn't. I don't mind sharing my story. The highs and the lows of it. Thanks for chiming in OneBad, your knowledge and experience is always welcome.
Originally Posted by AllMtrRex
It was needed at that point. Keep digging Darry!!
I'm on it!
Originally Posted by JDMswagSerf
The U-joints fail stock with everything mounted and angled properly?
What will you do since you are not near stock?
They sure do! Short of pulling a rabbit out of my ***, the guys at the driveshaft shop have some good ideas. They have been in the business for a very long time now and are pretty resourceful. I'm not the only one that's ever walked into their shop with crazy expectations...
Thank you, I do have a plan. If it doesn't work, then the plan changes. Yes this is one correct way to do it, but not the only correct way. And there are no "proper lca's" for this set-up really. LCAs are not the problem. Maybe you mean RTAs in which the only available ones to us here are from the CR-V or the '87-89 Civic RT4WD. The CR-V RTAs are huge and would require you to completely remake the rear strut towers so that you can move the mounting points to the rear. The Civic RT4WD RTA's are too long requiring one to have to cut a section out of them and weld them back together to fit. Either way you are talking about a lot of custom fab work. There's no easy way around this unless you can actually source RTSi parts, which I cannot.
Looking at the links I provided, If you had replace the rear subframe with the oem one, I feel that the lca's on the RTI model looks a bit longer. Thats where I was going with the lca comment. For your current setup there is no change, you just need to find a way to re-enforce the subframe, seat the rear dif further back but not too far back where the axle makes contact with the frame of the car and the angle of the axle should be good
OK, let's get back on topic here. Picked up the driveline today and if this works out, I'll be pretty impressed with this driveshaft shop. So they were able to utilize the CR-V driveline, which is great news to start with. This saves me some money, keeps the mounting points the same, and allows me to use as many Honda parts as I can, which was one of my goals. Granted this is now a "custom" driveline, but it's the thought that counts. What they ended up doing is using replacement yokes, u-joints, and flanges for a Chevy 1/2 ton. Luckily the CR-V flanges have a pretty common bolt pattern that is also the same as the Chevy 1/2 ton. These things are huge compared to the stockers, I mean way bigger. I forgot to ask for the stock u-joints and flanges back so that I could do a side-by-side comparison. I put a quarter in one of the pics for comparison. The stock u-joints would have fit a dime in the same place. With the integration of these new u-joints, they were able to set-up the driveline to compensate for the 3/4" that I moved the diff back, which means the center CV joint of the driveline will once again be in a good location. Like I said, I really had my doubts about the factory u-joints and for good reason. I am feeling a **** ton better about these joints, so lets get the this thing installed and see what it can do... And what else we can break...
Got the driveline installed. Everything fits nicely and looks much stronger. I had to get some longer bolts as the flanges are much thicker. Made some driveline loops too, which I should have done before. Safety, safety, safety. Took her for a little drive and everything seems to be in good order. I drove her very, very lightly. I only got her up to about 50mph and accelerated from a stop a couple of times. Nothing crazy, just wanted to make sure **** wasn't going get shot out of the back of the Civic. The tags are also expired and I don't have any insurance on it, so I really couldn't do too much driving. First impression though is not bad. The rear end is a little noisy when the diff is locked, but that was to be expected with the way I mounted it. It does feel a little funky when I try to turn into a driveway with the diff locked. I'm sure if I tried to do a u-turn or circle with the diff lock it would feel really funky. I don't think anything is binding. It's just that the rear tires can't turn at different speeds. The nice thing is that I can turn off the locker and it feels like nothing is back there. I've also been driving and turned off the locker, and it feels like I just unhooked a trailer. Definitely a drag with the diff locked. Well, maybe I shouldn't say that. I only notice it when I unlock the diff. I'm sure things are out of alignment too. I'm really hoping everything in the rear comes into alignment. That remains to be seen. The clutches in the diff seem to be holding very well with the locker on. Only takes about 3-4 seconds for the pump to fully lock it up, so it's quick. Like I said I really didn't get on it and am just babying it at this point. For now everything is working, so I am very happy with how far we have come. I will continue to drive it more and more each time and get on it harder and harder. Still so much left to do until this project is done, but this is a huge stepping stone. HUGE!
Looks good, but exhaust trying to kiss trans. Maybe a heat shield between them?
LOL, welcome to the world of CRV issues. I have ran it both ways, with wrap and without...
Anyways, DarryCar, the drag you feel when you have the TCD unit locked is absolutely normal. Welcome to the power robbing RT4WD driveline. You are just lucky you can unlock it at will. IIRC - From what most have seen, with the driveshaft installed there is typically a 10 - 15% whp power loss versus without the driveshaft installed (in your case locked / unlocked).
The sensation you have when turning while locked is normal. Your rear wheels are turning at different rates due to the open diff in the rear, but the sensation you are feeling is due to not having any front to rear speed slippage due to air locking the clutch pack. The normal design would only be activated when the fronts were slipping so you wouldn't feel this with a stock TCD unit. So when the front and rear tires aren't slipping then something has to eat up the slip differential that needs to take place. This is a result from the wheels being slightly overdriven and same size tires front and rear being used. Basically you are chewing up your rear tire(s) by turning with It locked... haha.
Looks good, but exhaust trying to kiss trans. Maybe a heat shield between them?
I may wrap it or ceramic coat it in the future. Long ways from there though.
Originally Posted by OneBadTurboCRV
LOL, welcome to the world of CRV issues. I have ran it both ways, with wrap and without...
Anyways, DarryCar, the drag you feel when you have the TCD unit locked is absolutely normal. Welcome to the power robbing RT4WD driveline. You are just lucky you can unlock it at will. IIRC - From what most have seen, with the driveshaft installed there is typically a 10 - 15% whp power loss versus without the driveshaft installed (in your case locked / unlocked).
I knew there would be some power loss with this set-up, but what I lose in power I think I will make up for in traction and then some. It will be interesting to see what it puts out on a dyno. I'll be able to do pulls in 2WD and 4WD, so I should be able to see exactly how much power loss there is! Didn't even think about that till just now. And yes it is nice that I can unlock the rears. Saves me some tires in the turns and some gas on the highway.
I've gotten on the Civic just a little harder each time I drive it and man, what a difference! It's like night and day! Even with shitty as old tires this thing is gripping and moving out. Still babying it a bit as I want to make sure nothing is coming apart on it. I was thinking I may try to put some sort of bushing or something in between the top mounts of the diff and the cross bar just to give it a little bit of a cushion. Not sure what as this may throw off the geometry of the diff and driveline. I feel we are getting there though. So far so good...
Gotten to drive the Civic around a little more. Acceleration is no longer a problem. This thing moves out now! It's nice that I can put it back to 2WD too so that I can see how terrible the traction is and compare it to AWD. I know that the tires being old and bald is not helping with traction at all, but even with those tires and the Civic locked in 4WD there are no traction issues. It's crazy how much of a difference it is. Everything is looking and sounding good so far. I even got it on the freeway and up to about 85mph for a few miles. I've put the Civic back up on the rack, gone over all the bolts, and checked everything out. Only thing that I found was the bolts for the upper diff mounts were loose. I put Loctite on them, but they still came lose a little. I added some lock washers and tightened them down. I also found some polyurethane bushings to put between the upper mounts and the cross bar. Not sure if that will do anything, but going to give it a try. All is well for now.
Still hard to believe there's a rear diff under there
I still need to weld on mounting clips for the rear brake lines and open up a couple of holes on the trailing arms for some of the bolts. If things continue to go well without any issues, I can tackle the rest of the exhaust. This thing is friggen loud with an open exhaust and it makes it hard to hear anything that might be going on with the Civic. So that will be next. I have a certain way I want it routed, but I may have limited room in the rear for 3" exhaust. I'm going to leave the exhaust up to the professionals. They've got better tools than I do for that kind of work. Here is my list of To-Dos for now. Still seems like a long ways to go.
-Get fuel line cover clips
-Get fuel cover clips
-Weld brake line brackets
-Open up bottom holes for wheel bearing assems
-Work on rear diff mounting bracket
-Exhaust
-Powder coat
-Install new RTA bushings
-Install new tire rods
-Get tires
-4 wheel alignment
-Figure out fuel level sensor
-Pass emissions
-Get tuned
-Build battery box lid
-Build firewall for fuel cell
-New coilovers
Sheesh!! Is that it?? We'll get there in due time. Getting it running was a huge step. Everything else is just kind of spending the money. Well that's it for now. Thanks for checking in.
What did you use for the air lock?
Pump, fittings, tubing, etc?
How many psi does it needs?
I used the ARB air locker kit. I can't remember the specs off of the top of my head or all of the fittings. It should all be on page 5 or 6 of this thread.
I used the ARB air locker kit. I can't remember the specs off of the top of my head or all of the fittings. It should all be on page 5 or 6 of this thread.
Quite well actually. It's pretty amazing how well those little clutches work within the diff. I don't know how long they are going to last, but for now they are getting the job done. I think that pump puts out something like 80psi, so those clutches are really getting squeezed together. I guess I'll know they are failing when I start breaking traction with the front wheels again. That little pump is nice. I do have a little bit of a leak somewhere in the system. I'm guessing it's somewhere within the pump housings of the diff. The locker has to come on for a short second every 10 minutes or so to replace the air loss. I haven't timed it, but it seems like I rarely hear it come on. It's pretty cool how it is working out. Props to draggbody for putting the R&D into this and then sharing it with the world in his thread.
I wonder how the rear subframe looks on one of these guys and how that subframe might help your endeavors.
Originally Posted by tony_2018
Yeah, I wonder. Why not do some google searching and let us know?
Check out page 6 of this thread, there's a picture of one on there. There's also a few pics out there on Google. It's very similar to the CR-V rear subframe.
10-18-2016, 09:18 AM
Re: Not Another AWD Civic Project!!!
It's nice that I can put it back to 2WD too so that I can see how terrible the traction is and compare it to AWD. I know that the tires being old and bald is not helping with traction at all, but even with those tires and the Civic locked in 4WD there are no traction issues. It's crazy how much of a difference it is. Everything is looking and sounding good so far. I even got it on the freeway and up to about 85mph for a few miles. I've put the Civic back up on the rack, gone over all the bolts, and checked everything out. Only thing that I found was the bolts for the upper diff mounts were loose. I put Loctite on them, but they still came lose a little. I added some lock washers and tightened them down. I also found some polyurethane bushings to put between the upper mounts and the cross bar. Not sure if that will do anything, but going to give it a try. All is well for now.
