raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

i would like to gather some info on the above subject. i couldnt find any solid answers on my own.

i know theres different tolerances for different type of builds
a daily driven stock car doesnt need to be measured down to 1/100th mm weight( i got service manuals and know that the oem tolerances are pretty loose)
but a race car engine would definitely benefit it since its gonna be spending alot of time in high rpms making awesome sounds

what are the typical balancing standards for performance build ( drag/road/etc)



cylinder bore variance
piston to wall clearance variance between cylinders
piston weight
rod weight on big and small end
piston to deck clearance
main/rod bearing clearance variance

crank ballance crank pulley/flywheel balance etc whats the minimum for each purpose

valves weight? does that even count in this situation?
difference between valve spring actual pressure when installed?


and what are typical variances for off the shelf products like pistons and rods and other stuff.

im doing the weighing and clearance and all the measurements myself. i got brand new digital toos for this purpose
i want to do as much as i can myself to better understand how this works. only doing minimal work at machine shop that i just cant do at home


i want to make this sht right this time no shortcuts so everything is perfect( as much as i can)


just wanted to know what to expect when measuring


im very close to graduating with my honda tech mechanic degree. so i can open my own performance shop.
im gonna name it : THE ADVANCED INTERNET RACING PERFORMANCE TECH SPEED SHOP

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

This is why good shops are worth the price. They know and understand this stuff up and down. Also, many are no going to tell what they consider the standard.
I agree, looking for information on this beyond factory published specs are very hard to find.
I have seen you had trouble with a past build, was it the head or something? I don't know, but it won't last long if it isn't just right. Glad to read you want to know more.

I have talked with some machinists that build race motors. I listen very closely and really try to understand and it still gets past me in a long conversation. Here is what I have gathered in respect to much research and personal interest.

Find a shop with the best equipment period. Is it clean?
The best equipment with improper use and understanding is nearly worthless.

Talk to the builder (Bring a long list), if He doesn't have time for you move on.
Get your build thoughts across to him so he understands the exact use it will see.

Make certain the shop has experience with your EXACT motor (B series I assume).
Every motor has it's querks! How balanced is cylinder cooling? Does oil drain back properly? Does windage effect crank weight? Where are the weak links in the equation?
ASK.

After all, they are the guys that will machine it.

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

yea the valve was ticking and (short version) that escalated into blown motor lol

but when it was running i never ballanced the motor i just put the parts i got in the mail without even weighing the pistons or any of the rotating assembly
and at around 6500rpm it sounded like a full on drag car when it was only slightly built gsr motor.

it was way out of spec


so this time i dont want to make same mistakes and i want this one to sound like b16b

nice and smooth

and im getting better parts this time as well.


i know theres money involved so im not asking how the shops do it just the numbers

the tolerances for different parts and variance between each cylinder
i know less is better but the digital gauge goes to 0.000000 and im sure im not building a nasa spaceship

finding a shop is not easy theres alot of shops locally that claim they can do the job but then whos gonna check their job. its not like 99% of customers have a set of digital tools to check the machine shop work

i measured my cylinder bore after asking the machine shop to bore it to 84.5 and
dial bore is set at 3.35" with spacers etc ( its a digital gauge)
cold block
cyl1-.0229" >>3.3271" >>84.50834mm
cyl2-.02205" >>3.3279" >>84.52866mm
cyl3-.0227" >>3.3273" >>84.51342mm
cyl4-.0232" >>3.3268" >>84.50072mm

room temp 0deg---90deg
1)_________0.0417-0.0420>>84.53882mm
2)_________0.0417-0.0415>>84.53882mm
3)_________0.0420-0.0421>>84.5312mm
4)_________0.0419-0.0425>>84.53374mm


3.37

wiseco pistons were
297.6
297.6
297.6
296.7
one is almost a gram lighter than the rest
and i dont know if its good or too much thats what im asking

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

The bores would have me worried, but a really accurate bore micrometer would tell the whole story. When Endyn checked the bore on my first sleeved motor (Golden Eagle, B series) at his shop, he first placed it in his assembly room most of the day. We talked and ate lunch, came back when everything was the correct temp like 74 degrees. All his tools were the same temp. He used a known standard on the bore gauge before he got started. It took like ten minutes to triple check all accuracy then he took the measurements.
**** was a little whack. The piston to wall clearance was a whole thousands out of spec. So i'm coating pistons and using it in my daily ride and started with a new Darton MID block set up for the drag car.
I use to work in a lab environment for a few years. The calibration and standards dept was no joke. They calibrated everything to known standards under the most critical environmental conditions. Some things were never touched with a human hand.

A gram is no big deal for a race motor. Many more stray grams of oil will be clung to the rotating assembly. Those piston weight are good for sure. You could get very picky and make them all the same with material removal underneath in the right spots too. Remember the wrist pins, ring set and c clips can be shuffled to get ideal weights.

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

yea i was thinking to do it within .5 gramm just because my OCD will stfu then
aka for peace of mind. because it is bugging the sht out of me.

i got a digital micrometer
eastwood digital torque wrench
digital depth micrometer
digital outside mic also to measure the crank
scale to .1g
sould be able to get it done and i think i found a good local machine shop to do the crank and other stuff


this is the gauge i got and used to measure

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DIGITAL-PRECISION-ENGINE-CYLINDER-HOLE-BORE-GAUGE-GAGE-/311241912186?hash=item487776af7a&item=311241912186&pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&vxp=mtr

but i forgot about the room temp i measured it in cold *** garage i need to check again


i mean is the .5 gramm variance good for pretty much every other weight on the engine?

what about other measurements for bearing clearances and p2w clearances what should i be happy with?

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

.5 gram difference is tight. I read a thread hear last month that someone was balancing their cam followers and LMAs for high RPM use.

I would stick to the Honda specs for the crank/rod bearings. They are great for racing and street service.

Piston to wall is a piston manufacturer spec that depends on material and service. Service being the most important of the two, dictates greater clearance for turbo and even more for heavy nitrous use if the manufacturer recommends nitrous use.
The pistons come with a spec sheet to help decide. If you are going to turbo, you have to go looser for protection but will make warm ups a tad noisy with certain piston types. If you plan to go the NOS route, you can run the same spec as turbo if you coat the tops with a heat barrier, otherwise a tad more is needed (for BIG shots 125+) to prevent contact or galling. This is only opinion on my part from a lot of conversations and research.

I have read so many threads that detail crank failures within miles or just start up even when EVERYTHING was taken very seriously. Ask Muckman, that guy has everything right, even stretch gauged the rod bolts and lost a fresh motor. The thing that I believe is important and has been explained to me is a proper line bore on sleeved motors is mandatory. Endyn showed me how the motors just sag when this rigid material is removed and gets relaxed. Proper is the key. To adjust the rod big ends for the correct bearing crush which holds them in place and to get the main caps the same way is what I consider a dark art.

Mind you though, if you are using the SAME crank the motor came with and the motor was not sleeved; Honda has done an excellent job of marking the crank and block for worry free bearing selection.

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

is all from different engines.
the guy said its aligned good.
but i keep forgetting to ask for numbers

i measured bores in room temperature and they did come out different.reply#3 above

does that look right?

piston spec sheet says 3.3267>>84.49818 which means i got 0.033-0.04mm clearance

Pro-SeriesFab

Clearances are going to be a general range with most shops usually holding onto the exact dimensions of higher end builds.

You can get a guideline for a 7,000RPM engine but the guys at 10,000+ are probably going to be tight-lipped.

The other wrench to throw into all of this, especially with you bringing up things that spin or otherwise move, is the material selection. Titanium valves would require a different clearance from stainless valves and inconel valves and sodium-filled valves. 2618 pistons are a little different from 4032 and then you throw in skirt length and ring setup . . .

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

yea im bumping into this more and more lately
people dont want to share info like they used to

the same people that came up on the info that was shared for free before everythign became commercialized are the same people that now unwilling to share with new people.

i know some people gonna hate me for saying this. but hate all you want you cant deny it is true

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

I feel like unless you are a professional racer in a tight field, you are going to get a great motor with 99% of builders.
It's squares and circles precision machined to glide on a thin film of oil. None of them WANT a bad experience of all the drama that goes along with most bad builds. That being said, A LOT rests on the tuners shoulders and the rest is up to you. All out race motors do not have to be one year wonders, they can last a very long time if they are kept in a "realistic" RPM range.
RPM = ruins people's motors.
I have never been able to justify or understand any street build that trades minutes of operation at high RPMs to hundreds of hours of performance fun. Any quest for 15-30 more horse power is easily found with the smallest NOS kit safely and without RPM ruining the mix. Just my opinion, and many won't agree. Though building for high RPM can cost twice as much as building for realistic RPM.

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

Im only going to 9000rpm
For personal enjoyment i love the sound and the neverending gears

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

Even with my drag build NOS car, I am not planning on running over 9k either.
I thought there would be a lot more comments in your thread from the community. Even so, you have got a good mind to keep asking and looking for yourself; which will give you a fuller understanding of the science involved.
Just a little off topic but generally accepted truth, all the power is made in the head. Get the head done exceptionally right. The best valve guides control side to side movement through the opening cycle and land the valve face exactly square on the seat. There is a lot of reasons to consider here for this.
1. It will keep the seats and valves from sinking into one another as they slowly waller themselves with off angle closure.
2. The valve will not pass oil into the combustion chamber. A huge no, no on a NOS motor. Oil and NOS are not friends and instantly trip up the combustion process.
3. The valves tip will not wear or cup out when the movement is fully controlled.
4. The proper seat width on the head is so important. This has a dramatic effect on the valves operating temp. When it seat for that fraction of a second, heat is transferred from the valve head to the cylinder head where the cooling system can deal with it. When a valve overheats in this four valve configuration head; the hot spots created near the edge of the cylinder will attack piston tops in the valve relief. Some builders realize this and fly cut the cylinder head to 84mm on an 81mm bore. This is called un shrouding the valve. This slight but needed advantage of cone formation around the exhaust valve will allow much more heat to escape the chamber and not concentrate on the valve proximity to the cylinder.
5. Get the seat width correct for long life and proper heat transfer. Ultra narrow seats may have a slight flow advantage over a wide one but are for drag only RPMs and shortened life spans.

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

thanks for the info man
the head is stock for now im planning to get the seats to oem specs don't want to mess with any fancy valve jobs for now just 3 angle fresh cut oem
and I was also planning to do the shrouding

but yea I was expecting more responces also its not like im asking fro their trade secrets just the clearances that people typically run with this type of builds

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

4 piston ddtech wheres everyone?

DDTECH

Cliffs.

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

Cliffs?
I no undestan

DDTECH

What is your question, sum it up.

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

when performance shops build their engines what clearances they spec the parts to
I know its much better than what OEM requires in service manual but im sure it doesn't have to be perfect in every way

I want to make sure I got the clearnces and weights and everything top notch but I don't want to waste time making it extreme when its not necessary.

my last engine got destroyed for that reason and I don't want to repeat the mistake I want to make this one a solid motor that lasts.

whatever needs to be done at the machine shop will be done there but I have most of the measurement tools to do the balancing like piston weight and journals and crankshaft etc. cant afford to have it all done at the machine shop every time.