Bense

that's because you're watching your RPM gauge and thinking "man i have to wind this motor out to get power" When if you would just stop focusing on the revolutions and feel what the car is doing you'd think otherwise.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bense &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I guarantee you that if you put a b16 in your civic along with a b16 transmission, and that if you were to change the 8 on your tach to a 6 and the 4 to a 3, as to trick you of how fast the motor was revolving, every oblivious person would ride in your car and think that you had an h23 "torque monster" in your car.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Bense

bump for edit

THAT MEANS GIVE ME YOUR BUSTED TRANSMISSIONS!

SkRiBLaH

BRAVO!

i love transmission posts, and this one is techincal and exciting to me.

i might be hitting you up on some questions...

Bense

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SkRiBLaH &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">BRAVO!

i love transmission posts, and this one is techincal and exciting to me.

i might be hitting you up on some questions... </TD></TR></TABLE>

thanks

eg2rs

Great post. Thank You!!!!! I installed a type r "ATS" close-ratio transmission from honda-tech in my del sol with a jdm type r motor. The transmission is supposed to have a jdm 4.7. The acceleration is incredible with the new transmission. 3rd to 4th the rpms drop only 500 or so, but cruising down the interstate is mind numbing in 5th at 5300rpms I am going about 70mph. At 8000rpm's in 5th I am going 110mph and pulling all the way hard. The Sol had a factory b16a3 with alot of mods and a Y21 transmission. It would go 130 pretty easy but with no pull. All of this is done on a closed course. I never drive at those speeds on public roads, except the 70 or so down the interstate. The car is a lot more friendly around town. Alot more fun on the curvey back roads which is where i like to drive, and hopefully fun at autocross, but the interstate kills me and the motor to I'd say. Thanks for all the useful info

Bense

I would so love to have a close ratio tranny &lt;3

ScubaStevo80

Great informative post... these numbers are probably utilitzed by any serious racer and its always nice to learn the theory/calculations behind the way our cars work. Props to you

Honda Sport

trickeng

sweet write-up...

work-in-progrex

im wanting to get a new final drive. i have a jdm s1. i want to get the 4.9 with jdm lsd, but not sure if it will fit... on ats' website it says it doesnt, but im not sure if it doesnt fit because of the fact that it doesnt bolt up to the dif, which i know it doesnt, part of the reason why i wanna get a jdm lsd. is this possible, if not will the 4.785 with jdm lsd combo work, or am i stuck with my 4.4...and if any of these options dont work do i have any other options, other than getting another tranny

figured id post on this thread since there are already knowledgeable people on it and NO TRANNY FORUMS. not trying to thread jack

thanks marc

smokey2.0

it won't fit, even placing a jdm lsd in it will be pain in the butt! the gears in the s1, are physically smaller than any hydro gear set! also the case is desinged to cary a tree style shift fork set up, so if you wanted to switch to hydro internals this will keep you from doing so! there are other reasons, just get a ys1 (cable gsr 92-93) and you'll be able to use the ats products!

Bense

bump because we need a transmission forum

Bense

POLL FOR A TRANSMISSION FORUM!!!!
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1510911

and of course, vote yes

Bense

Added another graph and some more calculations, cleaned up some other things

Vero

great post, I really learned a lot. Will be keeping this as a reference.

Bense

Added ti83 bling pic

Vero

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bense &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Added ti83 bling pic</TD></TR></TABLE>

Nice, I actually liked reading it at work, learned a few things I didnt know - like that you can get the % drops from dividing between the changing gears. Always neat to know what theoretical RPM you will be in, could help people plan for the strops and track.

Bense

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Vero &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Nice, I actually liked reading it at work, learned a few things I didnt know - like that you can get the % drops from dividing between the changing gears. Always neat to know what theoretical RPM you will be in, could help people plan for the strops and track.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Firestarter

hi,
Wiked post Although I didn't understand most of it... I'm a noobie to trannies so please expect extreemely stupid questions from me

I have a jdm b16a cable tranny, will US parts fit my tranny

your post has the ratios of the b16a tranny which are hydraulc, do the same specs apply for the cable tranny?

THNx!!

smokey2.0

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Firestarter &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have a jdm b16a cable tranny, will US parts fit my tranny
your post has the ratios of the b16a tranny which are hydraulc, do the same specs apply for the cable tranny? THNx!!</TD></TR></TABLE>post what code transmission it is, S1/J1/Y1/YS1 ! or once you know that code go to http://allmotorhonda.com/techp...s.htm and you'll see what the ratios are for your transmission

Firestarter

I do believe thatI have the y1 tranny. So would my car go faser on the 1/4 mile if I replaced the final drive if i swap the final drive with the integra 98 lsd? If that's possible, would the car rev really high in fifth gear... I know Bense did a lot of research & posted up specs & alotta info about the trannies... I'm a noobie & trannies & Its 4 am & right now I'm sleepy... g'nite.ZZZzzzzzzzz..

smokey2.0

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Firestarter &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I do believe thatI have the y1 tranny. So would my car go faser on the 1/4 mile if I replaced the final drive if i swap the final drive with the integra 98 lsd?</TD></TR></TABLE>you might be able to turn quicker et's, with a tighter gear transmission. but as far as the lsd, you'll need to upgrade to a ys1! since the y1/s1/j1 are small spline transmission, and the ys1, s8o, sc4, etc, are big spline trasnmissions!

gunnis

Good work Sir. Tons of good info here.
Keep the archive growing.

mobebk

Great write up, but ur not lookin at the real difference between a v8 and a honda 4 banger- the area under the curve. Ur dealing with peak numbers and not realizing the curves associated with the numbers

A V8 hp graph is more of a flat plateau due to the torque.
ex. If it makes 400 hp peak and 6000rpm, its still makin over 300 hp at like 4000 rpm. its very flat when compared to a 4 banger

A 4 banger looks more like a mountain
ex. If its making 200 hp and 8000 rpm, its probably making like 130 hp at like 6000 rpm

I have a built b20 makin 160 hp at 6500 and still makin 140 hp at 5000 rpm. The curve looks more like a steep hill than a mountain like the b16 graphs ive seen if thats even a REAL difference, plus i have an ls tranny, and ive beatin many gsrs, and b16s.

You have to stay in that range (6,000 to 8000 rpm), and whenever ur not there, its more of a dog. That range is so small, and therefore the tranny gears are short to stay in that range and not dip out of it, but the MOST IMPORTANT FACT IS THAT WINDOW IS EXTREMELY SMALL (6000 - 8000 rpm on a short geared tranny) V8's and motors with torque can keep on accelerating when ur stuck at 5th gear and they will take u off the light because of the torque. So basically, they will beat u off the line, u'll catch up a little bit, but then u'll top out, and they will keep on pulling from u.

From light to light, my b20 torque take them out
with the ls tranny on the freeway, the ls tranny lets u keep accelerating while others and tryin in 5th

THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE AND I HATE TO QUOTE FROM V8 FORUMS: THERE IS NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT

Bense

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mobebk &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Great write up, but ur not lookin at the real difference between a v8 and a honda 4 banger- the area under the curve. Ur dealing with peak numbers and not realizing the curves associated with the numbers

A V8 hp graph is more of a flat plateau due to the torque.
ex. If it makes 400 hp peak and 6000rpm, its still makin over 300 hp at like 4000 rpm. its very flat when compared to a 4 banger

A 4 banger looks more like a mountain
ex. If its making 200 hp and 8000 rpm, its probably making like 130 hp at like 6000 rpm

I have a built b20 makin 160 hp at 6500 and still makin 140 hp at 5000 rpm. The curve looks more like a steep hill than a mountain like the b16 graphs ive seen if thats even a REAL difference, plus i have an ls tranny, and ive beatin many gsrs, and b16s.

You have to stay in that range (6,000 to 8000 rpm), and whenever ur not there, its more of a dog. That range is so small, and therefore the tranny gears are short to stay in that range and not dip out of it, but the MOST IMPORTANT FACT IS THAT WINDOW IS EXTREMELY SMALL (6000 - 8000 rpm on a short geared tranny) V8's and motors with torque can keep on accelerating when ur stuck at 5th gear and they will take u off the light because of the torque. So basically, they will beat u off the line, u'll catch up a little bit, but then u'll top out, and they will keep on pulling from u.

From light to light, my b20 torque take them out
with the ls tranny on the freeway, the ls tranny lets u keep accelerating while others and tryin in 5th

THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE AND I HATE TO QUOTE FROM V8 FORUMS: THERE IS NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT </TD></TR></TABLE>

everythign that you have told me I realize, remember, this is a honda site, most people have 4cylinders on this site. And even if you do have lots of torque, you will have better acceleration with close ratio gears. And also, greater displacement generally yields greater torque. As I have explained, torque is only one of the two factors in generating horsepower. So therefore there is a replacement for displacement (torque) and that is higher RPMs and utlizing numerically higher gear ratios.

Now don't get me wrong, I never said it was easier to create 300hp from a 16,000rpm 1.5 liter than it was to generate 300hp from a 5.7 liter v8. However we all know that our sub 3000cc honda motors have relatively low amounts of torque, so therefore we must build them up for high rpms.

Trust me, if I were tuning any domestic v8, whether it's foxbody or f-body or whatever, I would get one of those big block v8s and put it in my car. Why? Because I have that option. At one time they made big blocks up to 572 cubic inches! That's 9.375 liters! But even if I had one of those and if I wanted more power, I would be able to look at these gear ratios and concepts and be able to make my car have greater acceleration.

There is however a point where numerically higher final drives will make your car slower. And that is when you have generated so much power that even with enourmous slicks on your car, you still can't maintain traction, These are cars that trap say, 160mph++ in the quarter. Now even with that said, if you have a honda that is trapping at speeds higher than 160, it is highly unlikely that you're going to be reading my write-up, because I am certain that you aren't just strapping prefabricated parts onto your honda, and that you're actively researching and reading books, attending lectures, etc.