forbiddenera

Hey guys,

so we have some designs for passable cam gears for b series. I was going to build one and test it regardless but never planned on really opening it up to the community because it would require a standalone ecu to run.

I've been having some discussions with someone in the community regarding new hardware for our Honda ECUs - this hardware technically has the ability to control this. I don't want to say much else about their hardware as I don't know what is or isn't public knowledge and it's not my project to share anyway. I can say that a ton of things I was considering doing are already done and this hardware will allow me to implement some of my other ideas. I will post more details, if I'm allowed, when I get my hands on said hardware in my build thread.

So, with the potential ability for it to be controlled with the stock ECU, I'd like to see what interest the community might have in this. I didn't think many people running standalone ECUs would be particularly interested as they likely already have race cars with wild cams that wouldnt be able to phase much or at all..but anyone with a milder cam or street car could highly benefit from such a system.

I have two potential designs for this in CAD already, fully electronic and hydraulic. Hydraulic version requires an oil line right into the middle of your intake cam & need a custom solenoid design. Electronic version wouldn't require oil line but would be more expensive to produce - I don't think I could use any off the shelf components for it. Oil is probably more reliable and it is how many OEMs including Honda implement VTC.

I would only be doing it on the intake cam, the research I've done says the exhaust doesn't do as much - it wouldn't be hard to put one of these cam gears on both cams but the issue loops back to control (available pwm drivers in stock ecu)

So, if adding VTC to your car was a matter of:
- install cam gear and solenoid
- install module in ecu
- install oil line to solenoid
- install wires to ecu from solenoid
- tune it

Would you want it? Let me know what you guys think. I am interested in doing this on my own engine no matter what, so, whether I share is upto the community.

JRCivic1

I guess it will depend on what the gains are.

forbiddenera

Well the "gains" would be the same as any VTC..fuel economy, added low end torque, better high end power. Ability to tune overlap on the fly.

It would be directly relate to which cams you have for how much adjustment you could get, bigger cam means less adjustment unless you wanna send your valves into the pistons although our adjustment range will be adjustable.

HonData says:
The biggest gift Honda has given to tuners of the K series engine is the VTC mechanism. Located on the end of the intake camshaft the VTC mechanism, via hydraulics allows 25 [crank] degrees of continuous movement on the TSX and 50 degrees on the RSX. For all you old school tuners lurking out there still changing the jets on your carburetors, who think you have to junk the VTC mechanism and go with a good old fashioned cam timing wheel, think again. In every naturally aspirated engine K20a and K24 engine we have tuned, the intake cam needs to be rotated through 25-30 degrees between peak torque and peak power. For emissions, the ability for Honda to rotate the cam to zero at idle to dial out all overlap makes for a very clean engine with no need for EGR. EGR porting is on place on the head but is blocked off.

..

would-be better than any adjustable cam gear

JRCivic1

What you stated here is all theory... salesman speak. I agree with it all EXCEPT the "better high end power". If the intake cam is set at the proper position to make maximum HP, it matters not whether this point was reached mechanically or electronically.

So the real question will be "What are the HARD NUMBERS ???" If you gain 5 ft/lbs in the midrange with the same peak power... is it worth the expense and complexity ??? What about 10 ft/lbs... 15 or even 20 ft/lbs ???

I applaud you for being willing to try. Taking on the engineering, the expense and putting in heaps of time to bring this idea to the "B" series platform is commendable.

Chance EG

If it was compatible to use in conjunction with Neptune RTP or S300 and was proven to work I would be interested.

I'd want to see some practical examples and results first though before investing in something like this. Would want to make sure it works as intended, and lasts.

At that point a B20 i-VTEC would pretty much just be a K20 with a timing belt instead of a chain.

forbiddenera

Will have to look into the possibility of it working with those systems, if it did you would still require this extra board and would have to tune it thru a separate app unless HonData / Neptune guys implement support.

We need a PWM output and a VR or hall input for cam timing feedback. I've been discussing with an engineer who has developed some new technology for our ECUs. The first product he has made and is public as far as I know is a mini cop module for our ECUs.

He has another board, I won't discuss the details until I know I'm allowed but it has the necessary IO and resources to accomplish this.

The main issue I see with backward compatibly with existing systems is being able to adjust fuel and sparm timing in relation to the cam phase. I don't personally use Neptune or HonData at the moment - I do believe they support some correction based off an analog input and this could help although I'm not entirely sure a simple correction would be enough from some of the graphs I've seen.

With a standalone it would be super easy to implememt but I'm not sure how much phasing is possible with a wild cam (on average, obviously it would depend on your specific p2v) and I'm sure most with standalones have cams.

forbiddenera

Theory? Cam phasing isn't theory, it's proven technology. No, I can't say *exactly* what the gains would be with *exactly* any motor, but, can you say exactly what the gains would be enabling and disabling it on a motor that comes with it stock? No.

I mention peak power because not everyone has adjustable cam gears tuned. Also, not everyone tunes their intake for max power at high RPM either!

I doubt there would be any or much PEAK gains, especially as if you said the same were already tuned for max power.

I think OEMs have already answered the question on whether it is worth it's complexity. Whether it's worth it for a specific person or build, they will have to decide.

The gear is designed, the solenoid needs finalizing. I should have a board within the next 2 weeks max, once I do I will send the gear for machining.