jeffcat

So this summer, I decided to change out my OEM suspensionsuspension on my 94 VX hatch at 245K miles. I haul a lot of weight on race weekends, so the rear was not sprung enough to hold extra weight with the OEM suspension. I ended up getting bilstein B6 shocks, ground control sleeves and eibach 315F/250R linear springs. Now all in all this setup has given me what I wanted. I don't have sag with weight in the car, body roll has been reduced, and handling has improved. With the sleeves, I can lower the car slightly from the OEM height, and the winter, I can put on snow tires and raise the car higher than OEM height, which is exactly what I wanted.

The only problem?...the car rides like absolute garbage on linear rate springs. I should have known this before, but I didn't want a hella slammed car or wonky ride heights, so it was easier to predict with linear springs. Unfortunately my head is a bobble head going down relatively flat highways with even a conservative 315/250 setup.

My question is will something like eibach sportline, pro kit, or some other progressive spring still have 2.5" ID spring bases and perches so they will work with my ground control setup? I'm presuming so but I don't want to screw it up. Likewise, I know both the sportline and pro kit have varying levels of ride height drop, BUT with my sleeves could I turn them up all the way so the car cpuld be above OEM height in the winters when I go through country snow?

Tyson

I have several thoughts

-did you reuse the dust covers? you should NOT use them, despite GC poor instructions telling you to cut them. this is a common problem and causes the suspension to go crazy as the dust cover just bottoms out. in order to cut them to a length they do not bottom out, they are useless. so pointless to cut them and reuse them.

- if the dust boots are NOT the problem, you are over damped with those bilsteins. 250lbs in the rear is NOT a lot of spring rate. you should not be having ride comfort issues. you dont have enough weight in the back of a VX, thats causing your suspension to be stiff and force other softer elements like your bushings to take the initial load, which by now should be in poor condition.

-im sure there are some custom springs out there that eibach makes that will fit, but really not likely. and not cheap.

-you can also probably find a tender spring or dual rate spring combo that would achieve what you think you want, but will overall be expensive to piece together extra small springs and the collar.

-you can also just use the rear eibach pro kit spring and a GC spring combo up front. just match the ride height up front to the rear. i have done this and it works out well. doesnt change your over damping problem, but it gave me control of my front body roll by tuning the spring rate and with Tokico Illuminas that adjust both compression and rebound makes for a very responsive and comfortable set up.

-whenever you change ride height, like you are proposing every season, you MUST adjust your toe to align your car again. or your tires and handling will suffer. i know where youre coming from about customizing ride height on a whim, but its a bit of a pipe dream and in reality youll just find a ride height that works and be too lazy to change it when the leaves turn green.

jeffcat

No I didn't use dust covers. They wouldn't fit over the bilsteins anyways.

From a performance stand point the car handles much better even on bumpy country roads at higher speeds, however the comparison was 245K worn out OEM showas that gave an underdamped and dangerously floaty feeling. I could see how these MIGHT be overdamped, but I'm not sure if it's that or just the fact that it's a linear spring as linear springs suck for any independent suspension oscillation, which is why they are primarily used on smooth race courses. My brother's spec miata and the EG hatches with NASA that are running 1000+ rates also blow in terms of ride quality when street driven. I think on a smooth course, the setup is alright, but on real life roads, railroad tracks, and any unjulations on the roads, it makes it pipedream to imagine ever having an open cupped drink on the road with the amount of bouncing. My initial idea was to go with a dual rate setup, but I already have springs so I would have to buy isolators and then 8 springs to get that setup which is prohibitively expensive. I think it just needs some progressive springs to be a realistic close to OEM ride vehicle that is slightly firmer and handles better. Bilstein even told me the B6s would mate well with stock springs or SLIGHTLY stiffer than stock springs. While 315/250 is soft in the performance world it's MARKEDLY stiffer than stock...more so than I anticipated. I could fill the back of the hatch and on OEM shocks and springs. I was nearly on the bumpstops. With these relatively "weak" 250in/lb rear springs, it barely drops at all with the same load.

Yea the alignment will never be perfect. I plan on running 0 toe all the way around and something along the lines of a modest -2.0F -1.5R camber as it's a DD fuel economy car that gets 70mpg with occassionally spirited drives on trips. The camber change I don't care much about. I realize the toe will change from 0 to whatever it will change to when I raise it in the winter, but I can live with that for the winter months until I lower it back down.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Bilstein B6's are monotube german shocks. They're not meant to lower the car much...if at all. I wouldn't be surprised if they have less actual travel than stock.

You're likely too low and riding on the bumpstop.

Bilsteins are also known to ride a bit more harshly than other brands.

Eibach sportlines are show springs. They're not for like...actual driving on. You'd want the pro kit for real world use.

jeffcat

my lowering of the car is VERY modest...like less than 3/4" modest. The bilsteins actually have a shorter body and more travel than the OEM showas. B8s are for lowered cars but since I have it MODESTLY lowered then jack it up as high as the sleeves will allow in the winter, I preferred the B6s and I have familiarity with them from our NASA miatas and hondas that run them. I will look into the pro kit. I emailed an eibach guy today for more feedback on adding the pro kit springs to the ground control sleeves. If that doesn't pan out, I might try ground control 200lb/in rear springs instead of the 250s that are on now. The pro kit is supposedly progressive but it doesn't look all that progressive for the 92-95 civics I have seen, but I can't see much of the coil diameter and all that jazz.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Oh...did you get rid of the stock style perches that came with the B6?

There aren't any lowering springs that fit flat perches like those for your GC's.

Pro-kits look progressive in the same way as ITR springs do. Dead coils to take up space, mostly. If you can find the stock spring style perches, ITR springs would be a good alternative to aftermarket.

QA1 makes progressive flat bottom springs if you think they'll help. Summit sells them.

Or see if H&R will sell you the progressive springs from their street performance (Bilstein shock based) coilover kit...though they may be that weirdass 70mm ID that bilstein loves to use.

Flat bottom springs are CHEAP. Look on ebay or summit racing. They're like $30-50 each, usually. Just figure out your current spring ID (probably 2.5"/65mm).

They're called coilover springs. Or universal coilover/race springs.

Try like a 12" long 150 or 200LB/IN flat bottom spring.

I'd be more tempted to use 150's. But...again, springs are cheap.

jeffcat

i can't use the stock perch as I am using the adjustable ground control sleeves.

I see what you mean with the pro-kit not having a flat mounting surface but how do people use the pro kit with konis and bilsteins with the regular perch? I would think as long as it is a 2.5" ID spring on each end of the spring, it should stay in place. I could get coil isolators to put on the bottom perch if need be.

I would prefer to stay with name brand springs due to past horror stories of ebay coil springs. My current linear rears are 8" and with my sleeves I can get above OEM height. I will look into the other options.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

I'm not following what you mean about the perches.

You can just remove the GC sleeves and put on the stock spring adapter that came with the shock, right?

Like...remove the GC sleeve thusly:


Install the stock spring adapter thusly:

Yes?

You cannot (absolutely not) use pro kits or any other lowering spring on flat mounts. It won't work.

People use pro kits using the stock spring adapter that comes with Konis and Bilsteins.

See?





eBay doesn't make springs.

But eibach, hyperco, stance, QA1, and other makes of reputable springs are sold on eBay. New or used.

Summit also sells said brands. QA1 and Summit's house brand springs (also made by QA1) work great.

jeffcat

I could do that but then I loose my height adjustability, which defeats the whole purpose of everything.

I realize the pro kit has a rounded coil on each end, but if the end coil is flush with the mounting surface, wouldn't it work? I realize if the end coil is helical, it won't work properly, but I have yet to see a picture of an EG specific pro kit spring off of a car, so I can't say for sure.

Tyson

prokits will lower your car 1.2". its the least drop you can get on an aftermarket spring. stock is really high btw, youre probably not lowered just 3/4".

the formula for prokits is a modest bump in spring rate front and back, straight spring rate up front (like stock) and progressive in the rear (like stock).

no, of course you cannot use prokits on a GC perch. thats silly.

you ask, "whats the point of height adjustability then?" if you use the rear pro kit, you can MATCH the front ride height with the custom rate of your choice. and you get the modest drop you claim to be looking for. and comfortable, progressive springs in the rear.

https://www.civicforumz.com/honda-ci...ro-kit-182037/

B serious

iTrader: (1)

I guess I am unclear on the "purpose of everything". That's deep AF.

For the sake of THIS subject, though...I am unclear on why you want pro-kits specifically.

No...you cannot use them on a flat perch.
-They will sit tilted off to one side. This will put a lot of side load on the shock seals.
-I don't think stock shape springs (like pro kits) have a constant diameter.
-Springs undergo torsion (twisting) as they uncoil and recoil. How will that work out with a pigtail spring on a flat perch? Badly.
-etc.

Think about it. If flat perches "should work fine", then why would Honda spend money to design stamped spring perches that have features to seat the pigtails?

Why would aftermarket companies (even ones who make absolute shitbag bottom dollar shocks) spend money on stamping out the perches so that they seat the pigtails?

What is your apprehension to previous suggestions? Your choices seem very very pointed...but you're providing vague details. Help us help you.

The easiest thing to do is buy softer linear rate springs.

If you want progressive springs that have flat bottoms: QA1 makes them.

If you want Eibachs ONLY: Pro Kits and stock perches.

If you ALSO want adjustment: Make your own compound setup using Eibach tender $pring$, Eibach $pring coupler$, and a shorter flat bottom Eibach spring.

Note the dollar symbols.

jeffcat

that's an option, but I like the car to run higher than OEM height in the winter as I live in rural Ohio that goes unplowed in the snow. Any drop is detrimental come winter time. Really a 1" drop is way more than I want as the roads are garbage here. I only drop it maybe 1/2" from OEM in the summer months then raise it as high as it will go in the winter.

Tyson

i guess you dont realize you cant put GC springs close to stock ride height.

its not as simple as threading it all the way up.

stock ride height requires a ton (literally) of preload on the front spring mostly. remember how you HAVE to use a spring compressor to put the stock spring on or off... after that, using aftermarket springs or GC sleeves, its no big deal because in reality, the ride heights are lower. to achieve stock ride height, you need a lot of preloaded compression. theres nothing magical about it, it doesnt seem like people understand how a simple spring works....

so in reality, you really wont be even close to stock ride height, and casually adjusting the height every season is just not going to happen. and you really ought to adjust your alignment after every ride height. these are realities, believing or dismissing otherwise is delusional or blissfully ignorant.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

^well...idk.

Stock ITR (250LB) rear springs have relatively low preload. If they were straight linear without all their dead coils, they'd probably have almost no preload. And that's on an Integra.

Depending on his spring lengths, he should be able to get close to stock height, or further, on a VX with GC's. He's got like 300something/250 springs vs the stock noodles.

The harder a spring takes less preload or height level in order to get a higher ride height (on the same car).

Tyson

SMH

B serious

iTrader: (1)

?? when did I say the force changes due to spring rate? I said a stiffer spring will hold an object up higher than a softer one.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Shaking your head must make it hard for you to read or comprehend?

A VX is lighter than an integra.

An ITR rear spring has dead coils to take up space. Those are mostly what gets preloaded. Kinda like preloading a helper spring.

He would need minimal preload to get a VX's rear up to stock height with 250LB linear springs.

If his springs are long enough to reach the tophat and provide the necessary minimal preload...he should be able to get ~stock height.

His VX is about 3/4 lower than stock (so he claims).

none of this adds up for you? try reading it slower, with your head held steady.

jeffcat

Preload is a misused word. Each rear corner of the VX is 380lbs-ish. With 250lb springs i would have to compress the springs (with the wheel off the ground) about 1.52" in order for the suspension to be at 0 preload. Any more compression than that is TECHNICALLY preloading the car and increasing the over all rate of the suspension and will make the car much harsher. Even if I adjust the sleeves ALL the way up, I only compress the spring about maybe 1/2". Even so when the car is on the ground, it will have the same static preload with the 380lbs of weight on the 250lb spring whether compress the spring 1/2" or slam the car and leave huge gap that requires a helper spring. End result is the same....380lbs of weight sitting on a spring that is compressed 1.52" If I compress the spring 1/2" in the air, the spring will drop an additional 1.02" on the ground.

jeffcat

looks like I will have to go with a softer linear spring like a 175 or 200 spring. I was hoping theere was something out there like KW's adjustable progressive springs, but the choices are few and far between. Tender springs are nice but that's more more coin then I want to spend.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

KW does sell springs, I believe.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Preload is word to describe the LOADING of the spring PREvious to setting the car on it.

You preload the spring on a bench to some amount.

You space between the lower spring seat and the tophat spring seat is less than the length of the spring.

Its pre-compressed.

That's the definition of preload in this instance.

The spring on the right is preloaded about 0.75".


You cannot change rate by doing this. You are adding a set amount of LOAD to the spring by pre-compressing it.

Also....

A VX weighs 380LB per rear corner. Maybe? But that's total weight. Not sprung weight.

The rear suspension also doesn't have a 1:1 MR.

Each rear spring probably is supporting like...450LB, though. Sprung weight is probably like 300LB. MR is probably 0.67 (guesses). 300/0.67 = 450.

Tyson

I'm out. You guys just don't understand hooke's law.

egsleepercivic

I didn't read everything in this thread but I have itr springs on koni yellow, pretty good for a daily I run the rears on the lower perch of the konis, levels the car out, its a 250 progressive spring, this is on 95 integra that I daily

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Thank you for all you've done for the world.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

He has Bilsteins.

And he wants to keep the ability to adjust height.