Honda-Tech - Honda Forum Discussion - Washer Trick ..LINK...

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Washer Trick ..LINK...

Re: Washer Trick ..LINK... (jaydm ferio)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> http://home.earthlink.net/~civicex95/rearcamber3.jpg
Perfect example on why you NEED a camber kit!</TD></TR></TABLE>
Really?
Doesn't seem to provide what thickness of washers to use, either.

Re: Washer Trick ..LINK... (PIC Performance)

looks like toe wear to me..

Re: Washer Trick ..LINK... (Joon Joon)

just get an alignment.......my friends have really low cars. they have pretty bad camber, but what wore out their tires were the toe settings.

my toe is perfect on my car. with -2.3degs in the front, there is definite neg camber wear! the washer trick only works on the rear of the car.. even with .5inch fender gap my rear camber was only -1.3 degs.. hardly worth correcting with washers.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by green91 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> with -2.3degs in the front, there is definite neg camber wear! .</TD></TR></TABLE>
That just means you need to turn harder with your car...jk

haha, well the crazy thing is, since i live in the mountains and there are alot of turns.. i didnt start seeing any tire camber wear until i started driving on the highway everyday

Re: Washer Trick ..LINK... (Joon Joon)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Joon Joon »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">looks like toe wear to me.. </TD></TR></TABLE>

even when u set to toe 0. it will stil looks like that. just lil longer thread life. but wear out spot is same

Re: Washer Trick ..LINK... (zzzkangzzz)

other then tire wear does the camber really help with anything else?

Re: Washer Trick ..LINK... (ace0fspades)

umm..ofcourse. with mad - camber, driving thur rain or snow is not really safe.

Re: Washer Trick ..LINK... (ace0fspades)

A bit of negative static camber will provide better grip during cornering.

I plan on doing this 'trick' today on my Civic.

I'm lowered on H&R Sports w/stock shocks (for now at least.)

when you lower a [non strut] car, and do not correct the camber, the oe spec'd toe range is not 'perfect' or the correct toe to use [when considering tire wear only, handling aspects aside such as turn in etc]

That picture is toe wear. It should be 0, Not close, but spot on 0 if your camber is more neg than spec range. Within the spec'd camber, of course all oe spec'd alignment angles apply.

Camber is [more of] a directional angle than a wear angle. Toe is both a wear and directional angle.

quoted directly from the linked page from the OP:
"I had 50% tread on my tires, after my camber kit install, a week past and the tires were down to the wires because the toe was off."

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chrisw85 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That picture is toe wear. It should be 0, Not close, but spot on 0 if your camber is more neg than spec range. Within the spec'd camber, of course all oe spec'd alignment angles apply.</TD></TR></TABLE>

This is mainly if you care about tyre wear more than handling.

Im afraid im going to have to disagree with you. Assuming that tire was on the right side of the car, that is definately negative camber wear. I do anywhere from 3-4 alignments a day. any toe wear that would cause that much inside shoulder wear would also have worn the outside and the treads would be chopped.

Camber is both a directional angle and a wear angle. It is directional because if the camber isnt faily equal across both sides, it will cause a pull. It is also a wearing angle because if the camber is excessive, weight isnt distributed evenly across the tread patch, and therefore the tread patch doesnt wear evenly. On a car with excessive negative camber it WILL wear out the inside of the tire. Negative camber can also increase ride harshness.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chrisw85 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">quoted directly from the linked page from the OP:
"I had 50% tread on my tires, after my camber kit install, a week past and the tires were down to the wires because the toe was off."</TD></TR></TABLE>

Isnt this common sense? After ANY suspension work you should have an alignment performed. Suppose that you have a lowered car with alot of negative camber, but your toe is set perfect. You then add a camber correction kit.. this corrects your negative camber by moving the top of your knuckle outward. The lengh from tie-rod end to tie-rod end is still the same length though. By moving your knuckle outward and not having an alignment done to correct your toe, you have caused a toe-in situation, which depending on how far it knocks your toe off WILL cause tire wear! No big surprise there.

so if im dropping on s techs, and dont have a camber kit, my tires will still wear even if my toe is zero'ed out to specs?

I had that kind of wear when my toe was wacky. After that, with -2.5* of camber up front, I've had absolutely no problems after almost 20,000 miles. My vote is also for toe, rather than camber.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by green91 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Im afraid im going to have to disagree with you. Assuming that tire was on the right side of the car, that is definately negative camber wear. I do anywhere from 3-4 alignments a day. any toe wear that would cause that much inside shoulder wear would also have worn the outside and the treads would be chopped.

Camber is both a directional angle and a wear angle. It is directional because if the camber isnt faily equal across both sides, it will cause a pull. It is also a wearing angle because if the camber is excessive, weight isnt distributed evenly across the tread patch, and therefore the tread patch doesnt wear evenly. On a car with excessive negative camber it WILL wear out the inside of the tire. Negative camber can also increase ride harshness.

Isnt this common sense? After ANY suspension work you should have an alignment performed. Suppose that you have a lowered car with alot of negative camber, but your toe is set perfect. You then add a camber correction kit.. this corrects your negative camber by moving the top of your knuckle outward. The lengh from tie-rod end to tie-rod end is still the same length though. By moving your knuckle outward and not having an alignment done to correct your toe, you have caused a toe-in situation, which depending on how far it knocks your toe off WILL cause tire wear! No big surprise there.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm still not going to believe that "excessive" camber wears tires. There has been so much information, and misinformation, posted about this, that I doubt we'll get to a final solution any time soon. However, just to add to the information, I will post my personal experience. Every car is different, and how you drive probably has just as much effect on tire wear as the alignment, in my opinion.

This is my weekend car. Its also for sale in my sig.
http://img76.exs.cx/img76/1816/image0006.jpg

-4.75* rear camber. Thats not a typo, it has nearly 5 degrees of camber, both sides, in the back. Factory spec is -3.75 +- 1 degree, so its technically at the limit of spec, and its not adjustable (trailing arm on the bottom, only the spring itself holding the top in place). I killed the first set of tires on the car (tyres according to the manual), because the rear toe was messed up. I installed a re-arced leaf spring in the back, and played with shims until I could get the rear toe under control, and the current set of tires have been on for 10k+ miles, without any signs of abnormal or uneven tire wear.

Take that for what you want, but that experience is what allowed me to ask for -3* front camber on my Integra without worry about tire life.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ekcivic9 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so if im dropping on s techs, and dont have a camber kit, my tires will still wear even if my toe is zero'ed out to specs?</TD></TR></TABLE>

The S-Tech springs are a fairly minimal drop, with a good toe adjustment you should have minimal camber wear.

I didnt come into this thread to start a pissing contest with you guys about whether toe and camber will wear tires. They will BOTH wear tires. The wear patterns can look very similiar between the two under certain circumstances.. Take it for what its worth, ive done 4-5 alignments a day on stock spec and modified vehicles alike for over 2 years now. Having seen it many many times on customer's cars and my own car, negative and positive camber WILL wear your tires! Alot of it does depend on how you drive, tires, how much camber youve got, etc.. but camber wil MOST DEFINATELY wear your tires! It is also an angle that can cause a pull and negative camber can cause ride harshness. Call it misinformation or keep believing what you read or have heard on here, but its the truth. Ask any reputable automotive service technician and they will tell you the same.

If it DEFINITELY causes excess wear, why have at least two of us not had a problem with it in 10-20,000 miles?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sscguy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If it DEFINITELY causes excess wear, why have at least two of us not had a problem with it in 10-20,000 miles?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I've put around 50-60k on my car, -2.5* camber in the front, very close to 0 total toe, tire wear has been completely uniform all the way across the tread on 3 sets of tires. I have never seen anything to lead me to believe that negative camber (unless we're talking like -8*) will wear the tires as bad as toe, or at all.

To people that are considering this "trick," please make sure you have enough threads engaging, if not get an OE equivalent bolt that is the right length. Also, you can "eyeball" the camber correction and do this yourself, but you will need to get the car on a rack to re-adjust the toe.

probably your driving style is affecting your tire wear. with my own personal car, toe perfect, 2.5degs neg in the front, the inside of my tires have worn significantly in 10k miles. it happens.

anyways im going to run to home depot for some bolts / washers... i was wondering if a lock washer would be needed?

i got bolts for 2.10 a pop... which were kinda expensive. but i dont know if they are grade 8 or not https://honda-tech.com/forums/images...es/emdgust.gif anyway to tell? i got em from home depot.