ekcivic9

i recently replaced my old toyo proxes fz4's with kumho asx's on my civic. im currently dropped on tein stechs which give about a 1.9in drop in the front and a 1.7in drop in the rear. nothing too agressive.

after researching on Honda-Tech, i was told that camber isnt as big as a tire killer as toe. so when i did the suspension on my car, i shimmed the rear upper control arms with the usual washers to correct some of that negative camber.

when i take my car to the alignment shop, i always tell them to zero out the toe, but it seems like there is always some toe in as it is never completely at zero. (i currently dont have the alignment spec sheet on me, but i will post it if you guys would like to take a look at it)

anyways, i snapped a few pictures of the tires on my car, one was before, and one is the fresh tire i have on that have about 100 miles on them.

lol excuse these pics, they were from my phone



this was my front left tire, as far as i know, camber wear should wear out "smoothly" leaving more tread on the outside, while gradually decreasing tread on the inside.
if you look at the picture, in the red box, there is wear present, but then at the same time, theres a weird *** dip from the regular wear.

what is causing this?


here is a picture of my passenger rear tire. this is the new tire that i just put in. i am aware because of my camber, contact patch should be on the insides vs across the whole tire.
if i have my toe zero'ed, i should be ok right? since toe wear eats tires faster than camber wear?

if i can recall correctly, i have about 1.5* of camber at most, but they are mostly around 1.1* which is nothing. ive seen cars on HT with 3* of camber and they claim that they have no uneven tire wear as they have their toe zeroed out.

soo... since i spent an arm and leg on new tires, what can i do to prevent similar wear? the day i got the tires put on, i took it to firestone to get it aligned immediately.

thanks for any help

-edit- i should also mention, after every single alignment, my car always pulls ever so slightly to the right. im starting to think my car was in an accident on the passenger front before i bought it... what could be bent? tie rods maybe?

-edit2-

heres the spec sheet



Modified by ekcivic9 at 6:04 PM 10/14/2007

PatrickGSR94

iTrader: (1)

Yeah I think you should definitely post up the before and after specs from your most recent alignment.

So why did you shim the rear upper arms if you know that camber doesn't kill tires?

The last time I took my car to have it aligned, the guy doing the work (I know him from my church) started putting washers on the rear upper arms. I told him not to, just leave it as is. I've never run any camber correction on my car, and I've only worn completely through 5 sets of tires in the past 150K miles since I lowered the car 5 years ago.

Relic1

any toe kills tires, that looks like it's a toe issue not a camber issue. all though you didn't state if that's the inner part of the tire or the outer part that's wore away.

I've run with >1* camber for over 6 years now and that's never happened to me.

toe in will pull the entire tread part of the tire inward as you drive, this will tilt the contact patch slightly and make the outer part of the tire higher than the inner part, it will also be forced to slip in relationship to the road, hence wearing away the tread faster than it should.

toe out is literally the opposite.

if the alignment shop isn't able to pull all of the toe out of the car then find another shop.
And don't just stuff washers in to correct camber in the rear. A good alignment shop will do it for you. You may have gone too far (easy to do) which tied with a little toe will do exactly what you're showing us in the pic of the old tire.
the new tire... it looks like more than 1.5* of camber to me. maybe the floor isn't level or someting...

ekcivic9

thanks for the replies guys, i will definately post up the spec sheet for you guys to look at to get a more accurate response.

ekcivic9

alignment specs posted up!

young noob #2

but the reason for putting washers in the rear control arm is because our hondas don't have a correction for for camber, but we do have toe adjustment, so to "tune" the suspension without aftermarket parts you can apply washers to correct the camber, because don't get me wrong, toe its eats tires, but so does camber.......just not as much

TunerN00b

It almost looks like the tire are rubbing on the chassis/fender. That doesn't even look close to typical wear, even with a poorly aligned car.

PatrickGSR94

iTrader: (1)

hmm that's odd that both right tires had pretty sever toe-in before, but the left side was within spec before the alignment.

So you're saying the car pulls to the right even after the alignment shown in the spec sheet above? That's odd, also, because toe looks pretty even on both sides and thrust angle is at 0.00 which is good. Camber isn't too bad at all.

98vsmhatch

The car pulling ever so slightly to the right may be because of the grade of the road. find a nice stretch of road where no one is around, go down it then start driving on the opposite side as if you were passing someone. It should start to pull ever so slightly to the left now, the grade of the road. If not then its something more serious.

Tyson

its no wonder that tire you showed with the wear on one side happened with the BEFORE specs you had posted. that "weird *** dip" is a result of the tires construction. nothing more, but you can see the general trend of increased tire wear on the outside.

notice that your camber was indeed not much. but it was MAINLY the toe that was out of spec. thus proves again, toe kills tires, not camber.

the alignment doesnt seem to be the greatest. they could have done a better job, but its fine and much better than before.

did you get the lifetime alignment at firestone, or just the 1 time? i hope you got the lifetime, its worth it.

i also agree that the crown of the road might have a lot to do with your car veering to the right slightly, even after an alignment. hard to find a perfectly level road.

have you also checked the condition of your outer tie rods? play in the tie rods will make the alignment measurement inaccurate and change the steering angle.

raise the car, grab the wheels at the 3 and 6 o clock positions and shake and feel for play. also have a friend jerk the steering wheel L/R and put your hands over the balljoint. any bit of play means the tie rod needs replacement. if you dont feel play, then youre ok.


Modified by Tyson at 5:49 PM 10/15/2007

ekcivic9

thanks for your input tyson

yes i got the lifetime alignment at firestone, but im not sure how many times i can go (is there a time period before i can go again)

i will get my tie rods checked, and see if i can get another alignment.

thanks again for posting!

doubleshotz

I'd go back there after you check for other problems. Better yet, if you can't find anything wrong go back and ask them to check for you. It shouldn't take any longer than 30 mins, unless they busy. Also, with the lifetime alignment package you can go back as many times necessary or whenever you feel like getting your alignment done.
You don't have to tell them everytime to set toe on 0. They should know what they are doing. Rear camber kit should make things happen faster. Good luck

PatrickGSR94

iTrader: (1)

How would a camber kit make the alignment go faster? That's just something else they would have to adjust and make the job take longer, which is one reason why I've never bothered with them.

ekcivic your camber is very mild and nowhere near the point of needing any sort of correction. Don't even waste your money. I wouldn't even bother putting washers on the rear.

ekcivic9

patrick- this is why im so stumped, i didnt think my before specs were that bad, and i was getting that kind of tire wear. i dont know what i should think -.-
maybe ill put 1000 miles on these tires and take a look at em before i draw any conclusions.

PatrickGSR94

iTrader: (1)

So the worn tire pic was from before the alignment, and the current tire pic on the car is after the alignment? Yeah you need to put a few more miles on them before you can really make a determination if the tires are still wearing abnormally.

Tyson

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ekcivic9 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">patrick- this is why im so stumped, i didnt think my before specs were that bad, and i was getting that kind of tire wear. i dont know what i should think -.-
maybe ill put 1000 miles on these tires and take a look at em before i draw any conclusions.</TD></TR></TABLE>


youre before alignment was bad.

doubleshotz

I thought the OP didn't want washers on the rear, I was offering an alternative solution which is NOT absoluetly necessary. You could test for yourself if the cambers are eating tires which I doubt is the problem. Honestly, the tires don't look that bad even before you got the alignment done. It was on it's way to getting chewed up but not for another 3-4 months unless you drive aggressively and/or you drive around a lot.

ekcivic9

double- yeah i understand i coulda ridden on them for a bit longer, but i almost lost it in the rain and veered onto another car, so i rather get new tires, spend some money to be safe, ya know?

PatrickGSR94

iTrader: (1)

You could have dismounted the tires, flipped the around on the wheels, then swapped the sides of the car each wheel is installed, and re-balanced them. That puts the worn area on the outside of the tread, and maintains proper direction on the tread. I've done that a number of times to get a little more life out of a set of tires.

Tyson

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PatrickGSR94 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You could have dismounted the tires, flipped the around on the wheels, then swapped the sides of the car each wheel is installed, and re-balanced them. That puts the worn area on the outside of the tread, and maintains proper direction on the tread. I've done that a number of times to get a little more life out of a set of tires.</TD></TR></TABLE>

i personally dont recommend that. i want the meat of the rubber on the outside for cornering. it also makes the car feel funky with the tire tread in the "positive camber" position, if you know what i mean.

but just an opinion.