red96turbols

I was reading over PatrickGSR little rant on why camber kits are not needed, shops all lie to you and the un-importance of properly aligned vehicles.

My background: I'm the manager of a Big O Tires location in northern Colorado where we have one of the best front-end repair shops in the Denver area and this is the TRUTH about camber kits and why such kits are important or necessary.

NO BIASED KEEP IN MIND, I SELL TIRES.

Patrick describes 175k on 6 sets of tires. GREAT! That is an average of 29k per each set. That is a HORRIBLE average.

Lets say you lowered your car at home, like most of us do. Do you have a 4-corner scale? No? so how can you accurately distribute the weight of the vehicle per each corner of the suspension? You can't, How many shops have access to 4-corner scales? Not many, mostly high-performance or drag racing places have it those tools. Now you ask yourself why is that important? Well lets say you have 500lbs on left side but 580 on the right. More camber on the right side. But this is fine! I read it on honda-tech. Well, okay but now I align it and set toe and now the car drifts left. With this drift we now just created a correct-steer condition which makes you steer right to counter act the cars normally left drift condition wearing out the tires further, congrats you just wasted your 80 bucks for the alignment that did absolutely nothing for you.

Now aside from properly and accurately lowering the car the way we'd all like to in a perfect world it just won't happen. Now back on point.

Lets talk about ACCURATE pros to camber kits, shall we? We now have the ability to completely customize the handling of the vehicle and not just settle for whatever the "drop" gives you. Now these days the whole fad is "tuck it!" "Hella flush!" well, great, I'll be in business for YEARS selling tires to these guys. We can now run any degree of camber desired for your specific driving habits. You only daily drive this car? GREAT! We now have the car handling like it did from the factory with reduced edgewear and feathering. Want to track it and daily drive it? GREAT! We can accommodate a more aggressive camber angle to allow for greater high speed turning and responsiveness with the slightly added tire wear.

NOW I DO AGREE with the "Not as fast" tire wear, but it still wears!!! Look at a BMW M3 for instance. Aggressive alignment from the factory, handles like a junior executive CEO for a fortune 500 company. Best mountain driving time you've ever experienced. When do you buy new tires? I'm willing to bet 30k with EXCESSIVE inner edge wear.

The notion of "camber doesn't wear tires" is a fallacy. You're right in a sense that it doesn't wear as fast as toe wears, but none-the-less it still wears tires. Example: Camber your feet for the life of your shoes, let your shoes develop a wear pattern and tell me what edge is worn out first. The same holds true to your tires. You have -4* camber yet never have inside edge wear? You, my friend, are a complete liar.

CONS of a camber kit...
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its like a mac 133 loading Oregon Trail, you'll be waiting for a while.
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initial cost of kit and installation..
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yeah, thats about it.

Most days, an alignment covers the adjustment of all applicable angles. Which is Camber and Toe. Why would we give up the safety, stability and extended tire life to conform to some guy saying its not needed? Well, he's right. Its not needed, if you DGAF and have deep pockets, or buy tires like Kumho Ecsta AST's that are cheaper than a tank of gas in my Subaru.

But keep in mind there are some really, really, REALLY cheap kits out there. I'd stay away from anything made by Skunk2. The aluminum turn buckle is JUNK and seizes and breaks. The rubber bushings wear out pre-maturely and cause inaccurate alignment specs due to the constant moving parts. The Kiwi kit uses spherical bearings instead of rubber bushings which is by far superior to a bushing set up. Skunk2 UCA kits suck because they have under-developed ball joints that wear out due to the fact there is no grease zirk to maintain the ball joints longevity. Still looking for a good front kit but this ones held up for about 2 years now with the newer design.

The most important thing about suspension set ups is what your plans for the vehicle and your driving habits. If you drag race you'd probably want a real stiff suspension to decrease the amount of squat and negative camber due to the cars naturally occurring positive camber condition on launching. Drift you'd want an extremely negative for your constant sideways car. Road racing is all different dependent on the track set up and your requirements for the cars handling characteristics. Daily driving you'd probably want as close to stock as possible as stock is designed with tire wear, stability and control in mind. By saying none of this is important is like saying air is not important.

This all being said, I drive a 95 Integra LS, Skunk2 UCA, Kiwi Rear UCA, Dunlop Direzza *Spec Z1 putting 500whp to the pavement with a 215/45R17 size on 17" motegi with factory offset. My alignment specs are that of a Type-R USDM chassis with a little more aggressive camber front and rear for cornering but the car is not daily driven. So far I DO have slight inner wear. But the trade off of handling at high speed vs tire wear is not of importance in my situation. I also have a 2006 RSX running same tires, KSport with pillowball mounts and a slightly aggressive camber set up with 500whp also, with inner edge wear. 2009 Subaru Legacy with FACTORY camber adjustments, camber and toe are at factory settings with no abnormal tire wear. Now how on EARTh am i seeing inner wear on two aggressively aligned track cars vs a factory aligned street car? According to user X its because of my toe-angle (which is not toe out, by the way.) If you want I'll dig up my specs on all the cars and post them for your agrumentative pleasures. But in reality the spreading of camber kits are not needed is just a gross judgement backed by no knowledge of vehicle geometry, road conditions and vehicle age or the user in mind. Its an opinion formed by an uninformed persons.

/rant

Tyson

In for response later.

Tyson

Might as well make it a second post.

Carry on.

red96turbols

I'm kind of wondering what's debatable here.

Kozy.

29k from a set of tyres is bad?

What kind of horrid plastic tyres are you selling these people?

My tyres last about 8000 miles if I'm lucky.

civexspeedy

^lol this. For someone who sells tires you'd think he might have mentioned something about the type of tire used. 30k is a lot for some and it's nothing for others, regardless of alignment, just depends on the tire, vehicle and use. I'd love to get 30k out of any of the 6 sets of tires I have for my 4 cars but I pay for performance and safety rather than tire life span..

In for responding further, that part just stuck out to me at first lol.

kyden

so what if he gets 29k miles out of his tires? If they wear evenly, then it has absolutely nothing to do with his alignment.

i use nothing but uhp summer tires for my cars, no way in hell do i even expect them to last 20k miles. hell, i've got maybe 5000 miles on my bfg rivals and i expect to only make it to 10,000 if i am lucky.

red96turbols

Well you're all getting off point and focusing on "tread life" and not on the fact that camber kits are essential to properly tuning the suspension, which is what this is about.

I have dunlop direzzas rated with a tread wear of 100. Average that "should" last about 10k, dependent upon how they're used. Now 30k out of a set of tires is okay if you're continually running a Nitto NeoGen, Falken Ziex, Kumho Ecsta etc. Now if you have a Continental Extreme DWS you'll far surpass 30k and still retain handling in summer and winter.

Back ON TOPIC - get off the tire wear aspect we're talking about properly tuning suspension with the use of camber kits. Tire wear is the smallest aspect of it. Besides if people want a Michelin Defender by all means its a great tire. If they want a Nitto NT555 they got that. But without the use of camber kits which is what my argument, you can not propler adjust your alignment for different scenerios and you WILL have a slightly accelerated tread wear.

And I don't care what you get out of your tires. I have Dunlop Direzza Start Specs on 2 cars, Cooper Zeon RS3-A's on my subaru which handle phenominally might I add and currently have 30K with 7/32nds tread life left, garentee that will not be the case with -4* camber and you all know its true. Bridgestone Ecopia on my lexus. So regardless of what you all say, we're not talking about JUST tire wear. So stop focusing on ONE part of the argument. Either you read it in its entirety or you move along all together.

rvn2svn

Tread wear does not correspond to a mileage rating. A tire with 200 tread wear isn't rated at 20,000 miles. It's a scale system meaning a tire rated at 200 tread wear will last about twice as long as a 100 rated tire and it varies from manufacturer to manufacturer.... meaning tires with 200 rating from different companies probably won't last the same.

Why are you seeing edge wear and feathering on aggressively aligned setups compared to a stock aligned car? Because you aligned them aggressively.....
and probably drive them harder than your daily Subaru.

Yes your right camber is an incredibly important part of tuning a tires performance and wear. Yes CAMBER IS A TIRE WEARING ANGLE. I think what the sticky thread is trying to get across is that if your toe is set properly and you didn't retard slam your car and it's a daily it will still be drivable without a camber kit.

red96turbols

I didn't mention a type of tire because Patrick didn't mention a type of tire. But I wouldn't expect to get 30k out of my tires or out of Toyo R888's. But this is not designed for the track user, this is geared towards our every day daily drivers that are told "no camber kits" are needed.

GagnarTheUnruly

iTrader: (3)

A car with negative camber is going to wear more on the inner treads because the contact patch will be farther inboard when the car is not cornering, but does that mean that they are wearing more quickly, or simply wearing in a different spot? It's also important to note that when the car is turning the contact patch will move back outboard and that wear caused by cornering forces might actually be more evenly distributed in a car with appropriate camber for the routine cornering load.

So we have two questions:

1) What is causing wear?
2) Where is it occuring?

Negative camber might promote wear in certain spots depending upon the situation, but why would it cause excessive wear? I suspect that aggressive toe is plays far more of a role than camber. I think that is PatrickGSR's point.

idriveahonda

I think PatrickGSR's point was about what people CALLED it.

The only people I've ever heard refer to it as "toe wear" are enthusiasts who know what they are talking about.

The term "camber wear" was coined long ago, and people associated "camber kit" with "camber wear"…

That led to "man, if I get a camber kit, I can get rid of my camber wear."

When in fact, you don't truly need a camber kit, as opposed to just having an alignment.

red96turbols

I agree with that, however, the way PatrickGSR worded it seems to point to his belief that camber kits are just not needed and are just a sales tactic for shops to make more money. True and false. At a regular shop we gear our alignments for FACTORY. Meaning what the factory intended the vehicle to be used for an in every day situations. We like the customer walking out of her knowing their car is aligned as it was and how the OE intended the geometry of the vehicle.

Focused at the general public, not actual track cars here. We see more tire wear on the inside than the outside edge and every Joe Schmoe is going to say "you aligned my car, my tires are worn out, you owe me tires."

The text he wrote is geared at the general public and the reason I say that and dismiss his arguement due to the fact any self respected or true auto enthusiast would know the benefits and how to properly use a camber kit. If it wasn't needed (which is how he puts it) no one would make them.

My whole dispute about that sticky is the information and the way its presented. You're right, you DON'T need a camber kit. Would it benefit you? Hell yeah. There is really no true downside of having a camber kit and the ability to fully align a vehicle to its factory specs, or custome specs tailored to your driving habits.

Agree? Then why is it a sticky, and why do we continue to promote it?

Wanderer.

That's actually pretty good and I suspect Patrick doesn't drive Miss Daisy.

He is saying that some alignment shops won't do an alignment because "they can't do it without a camber kit" which really is BS. They're just trying to tack a ridiculous install price on top of the alignment. Wheel Works wanted $200 to install my camber BOLTS. BOLTS. Screw that i'll do it myself.

I think the sticky is very valid. Sure, if you've got your car slammed and you've got -4deg of natural camber it might be a good idea to get a kit... you don't NEED a kit to align it and shops should RECOMMEND IT but should not require it. If it's a big deal because you think they'll come back complaining about tire wear make them sign a paper saying they're aware of your recommendation and the possibility of uneven tire wear. Paper is not that expensive.

The only cars i've seen with noticeable uneven tire wear due to camber had like -4-5 degrees +. If you keep it less than that it's negligible.

Because too many alignment shops are thieving bastards who like to misrepresent the truth to the uninformed to make a few bucks.

That's what I took from the sticky anyway.

98civdx

Why is it always tire guys that have something to say about this topic, and why do they always skip over important information?


Non biased my ***.

TunerN00b

Indeed. Especially the parts about most of the cars being discusses here lacking adequate suspension travel to begin with, then being lowered, and then having to deal with all camber kits commonly available significantly further reducing the available travel even further.

Integra owner. I have dented shock towers. Bottoming out my camber adjusting UCAs into the chassis caused them, and cracked my original radiator (from the shock). I can run lower and without the damage, with the stock arms back on. And the car is easier to drive without the horrible camber and toe curves caused by changing the UCA length.

Oh, and 20k miles on a set of RT-615 Azenis with -4° of front camber with perfectly even wear... Yeah, camber kits are needed for tire wear.

98civdx

-2* all around with perfect tire wear. I've been running between -2-3* for over 3 years with no issues what so ever.

bspeed

Check this out below…Every gawddamned BMW I have ever owned (4) does this to the rear tires on FACTORY alignment. Eats the inner edge.

If your car drives where you point it, the tires live a life according to how you use/abuse them and within your budget; (front) camber kits can be skipped.

98civdx

Since when is a BMW a Honda?


It's not. Comparing the two is pointless.

red96turbols

Really? The comparison can be made between the aggressive alignment from the factory, yet the BMW has CAMBER KITS. And V-W rated tires means nothing. My coopers are W rated with a 500 tread wear so that statement can be invalidated like the Bush presidency.

Tire guy has not a thing to do about it, bro. Apparently you missed the point when I ride on 4 different styles of tires, 4 different cars with 4 different suspension set ups with 4 different alignments yet all 4 have what in common? Camber adjustments. To say camber kits are not needed is STUPID. All I'm saying, which I've reiterated 50 times yet you still oversee the point and invalidate the argument is that they are USEFUL. And sir, to say you have -3 to -4* camber with "EVEN" wear, you're a liar and you probably only drive 3 times a year because like I STATED PREVIOUSLY I run -1.5~-2.3* camber front/rear at any given track set up and SHOW INNER EDGE WEAR. AGAIN it is NOT my TOE angle causing the wear as its got slight positive toe because when you put 500 ponies yanking on the front steering linkage it pulls it back negative. Same reason drag racers set it more negative. When the weight shifts off the front the front tires go positive.

SO PLEASE - FULLY READ AND UNDERSTAND WTF I'M ACTUALLY SAYING. The guy with the BMW is showing INNER edge wear due to most commonly CAMBER on a BMW. HONDA BMW MASERATI it doesn't matter. Geometry is geometry, physics is physics. You ride something on one edge with all the weight being supported by only 15% of the tire in a straight line (most people drive mainly straight on public road ways, just in case you live at High Plains or PPIR this doesn't hold true to you and your car is only driven in such places) what do you think is going to show more wear first? Outside? Middle? Evenly worn all across all 4 sectors?

Here's an experiment for you. Take ohh, I don't know, a piece of cheese. On 1/3rd of this cheese place a weight of some sort on that sector. Now drag it around for a few minutes and let me know what side has less cheese on it when you're done. Same principal is putting more weight on the inside edge of a tire and running it around different road conditions for 30k miles.

Stating "always a tire guy" is idiotic. I'm not trying to sell you anything. Nor do I give a **** if you buy a camber kit. That is not the direction I first took in post one, nor in post 19. So get the hell off the tire guy crap because wtf do you do for a living? Flip burgers? Seriously.

To say we require camber kits is moronic, as well. We do not "require" anything. That would get us in big trouble with MAP, BBB and other money hungry organizations to shut down shops in the auto industry. We simply deny any mileage warranties and leave it at that. When the customer comes back in 30k with a 80% worn tire that only has 40% use on it, we deny the claim and gets to purchase a new set.

One more for ya: If camber adjustments weren't necessary, Williams F1 team wouldn't have made Active Suspension in the early 90's. The way this system works is when the computers gyroscope senses inertia being exerted on the right side, it shifts the camber negative on the right and positive on the left to aid in cornering. HMMMM. WTFSTICK>!>!>!<<! Guess what, Mercedez-Benz, BMW, Bugatti, Apollo .. shall I go on?... are currently experimenting with this type of system for their super cars and sports car models. Now tell me, camber kits aren't needed yet factories are trying to actively control camber/caster while the car is in motion - yet you sit there and tell me its of unimportance in a "honda"... wow. You are one person I would never, EVER let touch my car. You probably thing the extreme angles doesn't exert any additional forces on your bushings, bearings and ball joints when you drop that muhfucka do tha ground son, right?

red96turbols

The day I see 20k miles on a DOT legal RACE tire is the day I'll LOL on your face. The ONLY way you would achieve this is to seriously under use that tire. And for you to have such a soft compounded tire with 20k on negative 4 degrees I already know you're a bullshitter.

I don't know what kind of suspension you run, but my suspension doesn't bottom out. I have adequate travel, rebound and dampening in the version RR k-sports. Not to mention +/- 5* camber adjustment from my UCA and RUCA. Also, I'd LOVE to see that car going 150mph for a mile and a half and stay stable with that kind of camber. Like I said before, which you neglected to read because you're so dead set on the tire wear aspect of the camber kit which is a miniscule aspect of this debate. I'm sure you have perfect equal camber on all 4 corners with your inability to adjust the amount of camber at each corner.

OH and I almost forgot this part: If you're running -4 degrees with no camber kits and you bottomed out shock towers and cracked radiators it only means one thing. You daily drive a shitty setup with ebay coil overs on stock struts with improper spring rates and you have no respect for the performance scene and throw your money away. Which I see a LOT of and you're just another one of them. I see people like you all the time bouncing around like a pogo stick, hilarious! We need people like you buying cheap tires such as the Falken Azeni (90$ at discount son!)

red96turbols

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete...e.jsp?techid=4 Now go to sleep.

red96turbols

It just occurred to me, you're possibly thinking of -0.4°; not -4.0. In which case yes, 4/10 of 1° well not wear out a tire. My Subaru is suited at -0.6 both front with factory camber adjusters. Integra -1.8. RSX -1.6. Lexus -0.4°.

My whole argument had been derailed by people ignoring the greater good, which is why the works hates America as an society.

Yes camber wears tires. Yes toe wears tires too. Caster also wears tires. The most important thing to get from all this? It matters because of ability to adjust, compensate and correlate. If you can't comprehend that you haven't a clue on the subject.

Kozy.

Surely your argument only holds true for people racking up a lot of miles on the highway?

The reason for camber is to plant the contact patch during cornering, if you don't do corners (let's face it, US roads are renowned for their straightness), you don't need camber.

BMWs, especially M variants, are setup for cornering out of the factory. Of course they'll wear out the inner edge if all you do is sit on the motorway.

Just possibly, the guys saying they have even tyre wear with a lot of negative camber, are leaning on those tyres HARD in the corners. What you are leaving out here is the driver, the roads they drive on and their driving style.

FWIW, I had camber kits on my EK4. I added more camber in to get more cornering grip. I had -2.5° and the tyres wore great, but where I live the longest piece of straight road is about a 1/4 mile long, so I actually used that camber daily.

I'd also like a set for my ATR, but she's a stocker so I don't really have any call for them, the tyre wear is perfect on the standard setup.

rvn2svn

I think this thread can be summed up with...

"If you want to get the most out of your tires (performance OR mileage) a camber kit would be beneficial"

There's really no reason to get pissed on an Internet forum fellas. If you want to debate stuff, cool. No need to make this **** personal.