dustinhxc

Im glad I found this. Im only planning a 1" drop because of the winters here. Also not looking for coilovers, budget isnt high enough for a good set. Thanks for the post!

pvez

Please share with me the right offset for 95 Civic Sedan. I'm currently running on 15x6.5 +38 and is planning to get 15x8s.

slowcivic2k

Start your own thread, this is an informational thread. If you "plan" on doing something, explain your logic as to why in your NEW post. Anyone can put a set of fat tires and fat rims on any car. The real question people should ask is: Does this produce any benefit? In a 130HP Honda? no. If you are going of looks, your post has no relevance here.

jalmanza

After all this time the truth comes out, good thread +++

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

My Civic is still running this same set of RT615's.

slowcivic2k

What exactly are you trying to prove by saying that?

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

That you smell like a fart

slowcivic2k

hah, nice.

Tires that are use a different rubber compound on the inside edge does not mean you don't require an alignment adjustment. A lot of low profile tires use techniques like this as a corrective action to prevent their tires from showing premature edge wear for people who refuse to correct an alignment deficiency, while at the same the company can tout excellent tire wear characteristics. Rotating a tire at an angle other than perpendicular to the road surface WILL cause excessive wear, regardless of what your tires say. The pictures you have posted are the exact same and proves nothing.

BTW, your tires show scuffing on the inside edge, could this be possibly camber related?? Who knows right?

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

Rt615 does not have different compounds across the tread. And what you say about wearing would be true IF you only drove in a straight line. How much camber you need to maintain even treadwear greatly depends on how you corner.

Of course your mind is already made up, so I'm just wasting my finger tips.

miguel aguirre

2nd.

Why is this a sticky? Someone is working for a tire company because you're making them all kinds of money.

"Great" write up though.

PatrickGSR94

iTrader: (1)

Because I made it a sticky, 7 years ago and it's still going. Guess how many sets of tires I've been through since then... a whopping 2 sets. Still lowered just like it has been the past 14+ years, and still no camber kits.

miguel aguirre

Just because it's been up for a long time doesn't mean you're right. You've basically put a blanket over alignment issues. There has been plenty of people who disagree with you in this 32 page thread. Ignoring the geometry of the car is not the way.

PatrickGSR94

iTrader: (1)

The premise of the thread is that toe wears tires far more than negative camber, unless negative camber is extreme i.e. stanced cars etc. Stancers need not apply.

But sure, go ahead and say that all the people here with minimal tire wear with no camber correction are wrong, despite the facts saying otherwise.

ShaunRR

Nobody is ignoring the suspension geometry. Quite the contrary actually.

miguel aguirre

I agree toe does wear tires more than camber if out of spec but that does not mean it is your only cause of wear. This thread is meant to clear up all of the "myths" but in the end you are just causing people to go through a set a tires before they learn the hard way that its all wrong. Whoever posted this updated:

*edit* something else to add - lower profile tires will tend to wear a bit more on the inside edge with negative camber, even with proper alignment. I do get a bit more inner wear on my 205/45-16's than I did on my 195/55-15's or 205/50-15's. I would imagine 40-series tires would be worse. A taller sidewall can flex more, therefore more even pressure is maintained across the tread even with negative camber.

"with negative camber, even with proper alignment" so setting the toe is considered proper alignment?

I would "imagine" the scrub radius changed and that is where your tire wear is most obvious.

"If they say they can't do the alignment until you get a camber kit, then leave immediately and go to another shop because that is 100% COMPLETELY FALSE!"

Most shops will tell you this because it is the only way to prevent excessive wear. It's to cover themselves when you come back a couple months later asking why your tires are worn to pieces on the inside. A reputable shop will still leave you with some negative camber. Setting it at zero would be a mistake as well(which is in the post with no explanation). Setting it at zero in a perfect world would be ideal. obviously we are not in a perfect world so road conditions would call for a manageable amount of negative camber. Most cars do not exceed -1.5 degrees.

Can anyone say that they are running -1.5 to -4.0 degrees of camber and using the same tires for 60k/4yrs(average tire life)? Not a chance.

This whole thread is basically saying if you adjust your intake valves then your exhaust valves don't matter. It does not make sense if you know what you are doing.

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

60k is not "average". Typically people with performance cars will be running performance tires. Expected life of performance summer tires is between 20 and 30 thousand miles (with factory suspension, proper alignment, inflation & rotations). I managed that life with my Falken 615 Extreme Performance summer tires without a camber kit.

ShaunRR

LOL, a couple months? There are multiple examples in this thread alone of people running with these suspension settings for years. Your hyperbole is not supported by the experience of many others, both in this thread and elsewhere.

miguel aguirre

Have you ever worked at an alignment shop or anywhere that is an equivalent?

miguel aguirre

Which further proves my point. A thread that states you do not need camber kits without taking every variable into consideration is wrong. There is no milage rating on performance tires so what is your source backing this 30k? It's all dependant on driver characteristics.

I'm wondering do you pay $600+ every 2 to 2 1/2 years for new tires?

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

I've had those RT-615's on my Civic since 2008 I think. They are pretty much done now. I will not be adding any camber correction when I replace them. I don't want to sacrifice UCA-to-fender clearance on that car.

If you are paying $600+ for tires, you need to do better when shopping for tires (look for both store & factory rebates as well as online price-matching). I just purchased two sets of tires for two different cars. My TL has UHP summer Dunlops for $380 installed (no rebates), and my wife's Pilot got all season Hankooks (and a 70k mile warranty) for $250 installed (two rebates + mileage prorate).

I did lower the TL with neuspeed sport springs and TruHart sport shocks. I added a TruHart rear camber kit for that car because it's more of a cruiser and because the weight makes it quite tough on tires. Even with 100% STOCK suspension it had for the past 11 years, it would wear the inner edges of rear tires 1/16" more than rest. When I lowered it, the rear camber went from -1.5* stock up to -1.9*. I dialed it back to the factory minimum of -0.5*. Not just for tire wear, but mainly because the car always flat-spots its high performance tires when parked overnight. This bugged me more than anything. The reduced rear camber has turned that problem way way down. Instead of rumbling for the first 5 miles of driving in the morning, I now only get about 1 mile. To me this was worth the $126 I paid for the camber kit.

ShaunRR

Nope, but I do personally know at least 3 people that have at some point. They all agree with the premise of this thread when it comes to double wishbone Hondas.

miguel aguirre

Just to clarify, you have had the tires on since 2008 and have gotten 30k out of them? Which would mean you drove the car around 4k per year?(you've already passed the 6 year expiration date) I'm in no way trying to bash you. Simply educating. From my understanding you'll deal with whatever wear comes with the alignment set up you have because you don't have the clearance to correct it?

I'm only quoting the tires you claim to have on your civic. Tire rack has them at $147.95 a piece coming to $600+ installed. I personally don't pay more than $500 on any car.

Camber was notoriously bad in the Acura TL and TSX so I could see that. From what I've researched and seen these cars were marketed for their handling so the camber in the rear was set a little more on the negative side of the tolerances. I agree that is money well spent. The facts are still the same, without any camber adjustment after lowering the car you will still wear tires unevenly. I think it should this sticky should be rewritten to include some of the more obvious variables. Stancer or not it makes more sense to set the alignment up right for the longevity of the car and tires.

"Nope, but I do personally know at least 3 people that have at some point. They all agree with the premise of this thread when it comes to double wishbone Hondas."

You tell me what the premise of this thread is because if we are talking about tire wear then we've already been around this circle. You could definitely say toe causes uneven tire wear but there is no way to say it is the cause of every issue.(which is what this thread claims)

EnjoyTheRideDC2

iTrader: (1)

So you're saying that with camber adjustment after lowering a car, you WONT wear tires unevenly? How would a lowered car perform with near stock camber angles?

What are these "more obvious variables" that lead to uneven tire wear

miguel aguirre

With a proper alignment which includes adjusting camber, Toe(front and rear) and caster(in some cases). It depends on what you are doing(Track Car or DD). This thread does not address that point either. Unless you are pushing your car to the limit every weekend it would make no sense to deal with tire wear. By no means am I saying to set it at straight up zero but not having the camber kits at all gives you no option to adjust at all.


I have been over some but to name a few I'd say ride height, negative camber, wheel offset, and wheel size.(All measured when figuring the geometry of your suspension) It's not a good idea to try to put a blanket over all of the issues by setting toe. So many alignment shops(including myself) have had to deal with some one who read once that they don't need to correct anything but toe. So I do know first hand when someone comes in with this idea then comes back and says the shop didn't set the toe right and the shop is responsible for the worn tires. If you have an actual track car then this thread wouldn't apply because you'd get the camber adjustments to dial in your suspension anyway.


This thread has reached a lot of people and I personally believe if it was rewritten in detail and to address the different aspects of an alignment then it would be a thread worth keeping.

EnjoyTheRideDC2

iTrader: (1)

Wheel size? Really?

Address the different aspects of an alignment? I cant see how that would do anything to improve the point of this thread.

Your rant about this topic is useless. If you feel this thread would be valuable if re-written, why dont you write up your own version to show everyone the difference.