Doodasi

You should let them do it. For free. Anywho, that is why you use a chalk pencil, and run a line down your tie rods and nut. If you go the wrong way, you can always put it back.

hcaulfield57

Okay, so brought the car back into the shop where I had it previously aligned. The put it up on the rack and told me that the alignment was the way it was previously (I had the spec sheet), but just that it had shifted causing it to be off-center. They said that they felt the rack was too loose and had a flat spot in it, I told them to align it anyways. Well now the steering wheel is off to the right (center is like 1 o'clock). Since I felt the steering was maybe too loose I tightened it up this afternoon. I also tried to realign the steering wheel and u-joint on the steering column, but no luck, it'd always be too far to the right or too far to the left.

So I'm not sure what to do now. I could take it back now that I've tightened the steering rack again and see if they can get it centered, but I'm kind of imagining they won't be able to. I'm thinking maybe I need to buy a new steering rack or a rebuilt one. Maybe the rack is just toast?

Tyson

what does a flat spot on the rack mean?? you said you took apart your rack and said it was fine.

why would it be loose? did you ever replace the rack end bushing? you said you tightened the pinion gearbox too.

maybe just find another rack you havent crashed with.

you can do these alignments yourself with longacre toe plates. theyre accurate, i've done tests against a hunter rack done by a professional.

hcaulfield57

I was paraphrasing, the shop just said they thought it was too worn on-center.

Yea not sure what the deal is... I autocrossed the car on Saturday and it felt pretty good, but today driving to work it felt really vague. Like there isn't any play in the rack, but it feels just loose, vague and sloppy. I replaced the rack-end bushing and tightened the pre-load adjustment on the rack guide. I didn't have it very tight when I went to get an alignment though. I'm leaning to replacing the rack to just have a good starting base. It's disappointing to have sub-standard steering when I know the steering can be really good on these cars. Not sure, I'll play around with it this week.

EDIT: Just remembered that I've got the front tires on 40 psi from autocross, I'll lower it and that might help steering feel. Since I'm just driving around slow that might be why it feels vague with that high of a pressure.

I also spoke with my co-worker who I bought the car from (he doesn't know anything about cars, but I was describing the problem to make conversation), and he told me that he had a similar problem with the car at some point due to the steelies being different widths, would that make a difference?

Doodasi

No to the steelies thingy. I have no idea what vague steering feels like, and if it does not have any play in the steering, and does not pull on a flat surface with no road crown, with the steering off center, than I would have to say either you have a radial pull issue (probably rear tire), or the guy who did your alignment is a douchbag. Or both. You could cross rotate all 4 tires, front to back, and left to right, and see if anything changes to rule out your tires. Rack issues you can usually feel when you shake the steering wheel, and tires with the car not running, or sometimes they can memory steer and stuff. It will want to go to the same spot, usually causing a pull, or not steer smoothly. I never fix racks either. Remans are relatively cheap, and clean.

hcaulfield57

By vague steering, I mean it's vague as to how much the front wheels have actually turned. The feedback is very poor all of a sudden.

I don't think it's the tires, since I've rotated them all and the issues occur on both sets of tires. There is a notchy section around center in the rack and I can move the steering wheel an inch in each direction with very little resistance when not moving. The tires do jiggle, but it doesn't feel normal. I'm going to replace the rack, I think I've wasted too much time and money on this current one, and just want this fixed - I'm tired of screwing around with it. I was planning on a new OEM rack from Honda, which are very expensive, but I was thinking at least I have brand new stuff then. My rack has 210,000-ish miles, so maybe it's just near the end of it's useful life, or I messed it up from slipping off the curb.

hcaulfield57

Oh bummer, new steering racks are discontinued from Honda. I could have sworn they weren't discontinued last time I looked. Where do people get re-manufactured units, just RockAuto?

Doodasi

I have a very low amount of issues with regular remanufactured racks. That's all I ever use. Once in a very great while you get a funky one, and just do it again. They are pritty much all the same. Made by some cheap labor mexican in some far off distant planet. Not much to it really. They are sold everywhere.

Croc NZ

You have a tyre problem for sure - and possibly nothing else. Assuming that you usually drive on the correct side of the road, the tyres will wear their shoulders differently because of road camber. The kerb-side shoulders (inner shoulders on the driver's side of the car, outers on the other) will wear faster because the car spends most of its time trying (very gently) to keep from falling down into the gutter on the edge of the road. If you take your hands off the wheel, that is the direction the car will naturally drift to, and it is least on very flat roads and worse on roads with lots of camber (curvature).

Exaggerating the degree of this wear, the tyres would become conical, and they would naturally try to roll in a curve, towards the side of their smallest diameter.

This wear on the front tyres causes the steering to pull. In USA Canada and Europe that is towards the right, in New Zealand, Australia and the United Kingdom, it is towards the left.

If it is on the rear tyres, it causes the steering wheel to be off-centre, but it will not cause pulling. The car will actually be driving very slightly crab-wise. Often it is both ends of the car, so you get both symptoms.

We had one tyre partly delaminate internally, and go out of shape just a few months ago - one side of the tyre grew to become a larger diameter than the other. Same deal, the car just tried to turn left.

The diagnosis is really easy. Swap the front tyres from side to side and see what happens. If the pulling disappears or swaps direction, there is a front tyre wear problem. Then swap the rear tyres from side to side. Driving straight, if the position of the steering wheel has now changed, the rear tyres are not evenly worn.

Lazy steering can be caused by front wheel toe-out. Over time, toe-out can be confirmed by greater wear on the inner shoulders of the tyres, most especially the driver's side. (Too much toe-in shows up as outer shoulder wear, greatest on the kerb-side tyre.)

hcaulfield57

Croc NZ: Thanks for the response! I haven't had the car on the road in a few weeks so once I get everything back together I'll make sure to pay attention to your remarks.

I found something that I think could be a source of the problems I've been having. The passenger side wheel has some noticeable play in it. I can turn the hub (all bolted-up minus tie-rods) a bit with no resistance. Eventually you'll turn past the play area and it turns normally. The driver side wheel has zero play in it and moves smoothly throughout the entire range of steering. Also found another interesting thing. If I rotate the passenger side wheel forwards by the studs the wheel will start to toe-in on it's own. If I rotate it rearwards it toes-out. The driver side wheel does not exhibit this behavior and can be rotated without toe-in or out. I unbolted both the ball-joints from the passenger side and didn't really notice any play in them. I think the play is coming from the axle. Can anyone comment on this, does this make any sense?

hcaulfield57

I replaced my current steering rack with a rack I got off of Honda-Tech (replaced tie-rod ends (inner and outer) and rack-end bushing in the process). The alignment shop was able to get the car aligned correctly. So now the steering is centered when driving down the road. I'm thrilled.

There is still some vagueness on-center and feels like it's not nearly as sharp or precise as it should be. I'm guessing there is a problem with either ball-joints or wheel bearing on the passenger side like I suspected. I'm going to address those issues and then adjust the rack and I'm hoping everything should be back to normal. I'll post back once I get to it.

hcaulfield57

Steering got progressively sloppy and vague, despite there being no play in the rack at rest. Took the passenger side knuckle / hub off and I'm replacing the wheel bearing and lower ball-joint since I already had the parts from earlier. Honestly I think the play I felt in the passenger side wheel was coming from the axle. I don't even know if that's possible. Could a bad axle create weird steering feel?

Tyson

is it not obvious to fix this?

have you at least tried to tighten the axle nut?

hcaulfield57

I took the whole knuckle off. I'm replacing the wheel bearing and lower ball-joint. I'm not entirely sure those were the problem but I have the parts anyways. I think the axle may be where the play is, I bought a new one online.

Is there a physical "limit" to the number of times the lower ball-joint can be replaced? I wonder if pressing the ball-joint in and out could remove material on the knuckle - the replacement ball-joints no longer have a groove for a circlip.

egsleepercivic

Which ball joints are you getting ? I purchased beck\arnley from amazon which were re boxed 555 ball joints and they have the groove.

hcaulfield57

OEM Honda from Majestic.

Tyson

oem no longer uses the o ring. its useless.

theres no limit to its replacement.

"If I rotate the passenger side wheel forwards by the studs the wheel will start to toe-in on it's own. If I rotate it rearwards it toes-out. " either your wheel is not on straight, or the hub is bent, or loose in the bearing.

hcaulfield57

Great, thanks Tyson. I'm replacing the hub already because I could not get it off of the inner race of the wheel bearing. I tried hammering it out with a chisel, using a bearing puller, using my hydraulic press.

hcaulfield57

Okay, replaced passenger hub, lower ball-joint and wheel bearing.

There's still a floaty feeling from the steering like it's just not as sharp as it should be. I never adjusted the used steering rack I got after putting it in, so I'm going to try adjusting it to see if that helps. I'm hoping that's all it is.

PabloM

and??

hcaulfield57

Adjusting the steering rack was hugely helpful, although I did back off the adjustment a week ago. The steering felt like it was binding a bit during parking after putting on my Summer tires and backing the adjustment off a bit helped.

I'd say the cars current handling and steering are pretty good, definitely not perfect though. The only real negatives are the steering doesn't feel super sharp on-center (although it's good everywhere else) and it tram-lines a ton if the pavement isn't perfect. I'm not 100% sure where the issue is coming from. The car is on 15x7 wheels, but those aren't that wide, and last time it was aligned I had 1/16" toe-out on the front, but that's not that much toe-out. The car feels sort of sluggish and non-responsive when you start to turn, however once the turn has been initiated it feels really neutral and balanced. I don't know if my alignment shifted or if that's even possible. I haven't been able to autocross the car since the engine is about to blow. Whatever the original issue was is probably long gone, in general I'm pretty happy with how it's driving (handling/steering wise), but I still feel it could be a bit better.

hcaulfield57

I considered opening another thread, but it's really the same issue. To be honest I'm not sure why I said the issue is fixed, I suppose it just got better. I still have the following issues:

- Car pulls to the right under throttle, coasting and braking. The only time it doesn't go the right is if the road is heavily cambered towards the left in which case it pretty much just goes straight.
- Vibration coming through the steering wheel and a sort of numbness about the steering. I think the vibration is causing the latter.

I've replaced everything in the front suspension with the exception of what I suspect may be the culprits. Drive shafts are cheapo axles from RockAuto I bought when I got the car. Both wheel bearings are new, but when I was putting in the right wheel bearing I sort of gouged up the race on the knuckle and I'm wondering if that's causing issues and it might be worth getting a new knuckle on that side. I'll also notice that letting off the throttle will cause the car to briefly dart to the left in most cases. Sorry guys, trying my best to get things fixed here.

hcaulfield57

Well made some headway on this problem. Due to the cold temperatures I swapped the stock wheels back onto the car. I was shocked at the transformed handling characteristics:

- Enkei RPF-1 15x7 +41 offset w/ Dunlop Direzza Star Spec ZII: heavy steering with little feedback and vagueness during initial turn-in, heavy pull to the right when letting go of the steering.
- stock 13" steelies w/ Michelin Defender all seasons: light steering with good feedback and no vagueness, pull to the right has 90% disappeared.

So my thoughts are either 1) something is screwed up in my alignment or possibly suspension (wheel bearing?) that has caused uneven wear accelerated by the fast wearing nature of the Direzza's or 2) since the Direzza's for their entire life were not rotated side to side (directional tires), this caused uneven wear. Any ideas? I'm glad I sort of fixed the problem, but I'm sure it's not gone forever. It'd be nice if I could make some progress on this while I'm figuring out the engine issues too. It's kind of embarrassing how much nicer it drives on crappy all seasons now.