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BrakeExpert's Brake Chart Thread - Civic Brake Upgrades for EF, EG, EK and Integras

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BrakeExpert's Brake Chart Thread - Civic Brake Upgrades for EF, EG, EK and Integras

 
Old 04-19-2012, 02:25 PM
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Default Re: BrakeExpert's Brake Chart Thread - Civic Brake Upgrades for EF, EG, EK and Integr

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Old 04-20-2012, 07:22 AM
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Default Re: BrakeExpert's Brake Chart Thread - Civic Brake Upgrades for EF, EG, EK and Integr

Hi Brake Expert.
I know this topic has been beat to death but everyone seems to have their own opinions and I was hoping to get a clear an concise answer from someone who seems to know that they are talking about. I have an 05 civic ex, Canadian si version. Yesterday I found the rear disk brake set up I need from an 02 EL, the parking brake cables, abs cables, lines, knuckles, trailing arms, callipers, etc. My mechanic has asked me a couple of questions before I go ahead with the instal and I was wondering if you could finally clear this up for me. He wanted to know if I needed to change the proportioning valves and the master cylinder. From what I have read on here the 05 civic ex I don't need to change the valves and the guy who took the set up from the car yesterday told me that as long as I take the check valve off I don't need to change the master cylinder. I was hoping that you could clarify this for me. It would be greatly appreciated.

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Old 04-20-2012, 07:24 AM
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Default Re: BrakeExpert's Brake Chart Thread - Civic Brake Upgrades for EF, EG, EK and Integr

I'll say it again:

DO NOT change your prop valve.

MC side is determined by the front brakes, not the rear. Rear disc swaps do not necessitate a MC change.
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Old 04-20-2012, 07:33 AM
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Default Re: BrakeExpert's Brake Chart Thread - Civic Brake Upgrades for EF, EG, EK and Integr

Ok thanks, so just go with the strait bolt on conversion with the parts I have now.
Again I appreciate your input.
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Old 04-20-2012, 09:21 AM
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Default Re: BrakeExpert's Brake Chart Thread - Civic Brake Upgrades for EF, EG, EK and Integr

Originally Posted by Chaos-Inception View Post
Ok thanks, so just go with the strait bolt on conversion with the parts I have now.
Again I appreciate your input.
Here in the US, the 03-05 Si didn't have a prop valve. Just a cheap 4-way joint. This is because this car was the first Civic equipped with EBD (electronic brake distribution). This is a computer controlled proportioning system that uses the ABS modulator to varying the front-to-rear bias depending on input from the wheel speed sensors. This is cool cause it allows you to take advantage of any additional weight you might put over the rear wheels (like rear passengers or luggage in the trunk). A conventional brake setup cannot do this. This image below will help explain.

So while you DEFINITELY SHOULD swap out the prop valve with ANY drum to disc conversion, it is not possible for you to do so as there is no rear-disc prop valve for your chassis available to switch to. Honda has done away with prop valves in late model 4-wheel disc vehicles.

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Old 04-20-2012, 01:56 PM
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Default Re: BrakeExpert's Brake Chart Thread - Civic Brake Upgrades for EF, EG, EK and Integr

I have a 93 del sol si and i want to give it a little boost in the the break department. Can i just get the front caliper brackets from any 94 to 01 integra then get the 262MM rotors and integra front pads and use my stock caliper? Will the stock caliper mount up to the integra caliper bracket? Would their be a noticeable difference or should i just get the integra caliper too.
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Old 04-20-2012, 02:10 PM
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Default Re: BrakeExpert's Brake Chart Thread - Civic Brake Upgrades for EF, EG, EK and Integr

No, the integra caliper brackets won't bolt onto the Si (small) knuckle. You would need integra knuckles, pads rotors and a 15/16" master cylinder.

You can try to make 262mm rotors work with ITR front calipers, but you have to have the brackets machined.
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Old 04-20-2012, 02:48 PM
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Default Re: BrakeExpert's Brake Chart Thread - Civic Brake Upgrades for EF, EG, EK and Integr

Originally Posted by 94eg! View Post
No, the integra caliper brackets won't bolt onto the Si (small) knuckle. You would need integra knuckles, pads rotors and a 15/16" master cylinder.

You can try to make 262mm rotors work with ITR front calipers, but you have to have the brackets machined.
I didnt realize that. I did a little more searching and you are correct sir. Seems like it will be a little more expensive than I originality anticipated. Is their enough of an advantage to doing this to justify the expense or should i just leave it alone. The car is my dd and i plan on doing some light autox this season is it worth it for me to even do it?

on a side note iv got a gsr sway bar, progress cs2 coil overs, and pic bushings all the way around. stock engine iv been spending my money on up grading the suspension and chaise first performance comes later. Right now im thinking breaks.

Also could I just go to a junk yard and grab the whole ex knuckle with caliper and all and call it a day or is the ex caliper different then the integra caliper. Oh and should I grab the knuckle form an ef eg or ek civic. thanks
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Old 04-20-2012, 03:03 PM
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Default Re: BrakeExpert's Brake Chart Thread - Civic Brake Upgrades for EF, EG, EK and Integr

sry to be a pain in the a** on last thing will there be a difference in geometry when i put an ex/integer knuckle on my car. meaning will i need an alignment or is it all the same.
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Old 04-20-2012, 03:08 PM
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Default Re: BrakeExpert's Brake Chart Thread - Civic Brake Upgrades for EF, EG, EK and Integr

Originally Posted by needbout350 View Post
I didnt realize that. I did a little more searching and you are correct sir. Seems like it will be a little more expensive than I originality anticipated. Is their enough of an advantage to doing this to justify the expense or should i just leave it alone. The car is my dd and i plan on doing some light autox this season is it worth it for me to even do it?

on a side note iv got a gsr sway bar, progress cs2 coil overs, and pic bushings all the way around. stock engine iv been spending my money on up grading the suspension and chaise first performance comes later. Right now im thinking breaks.

Also could I just go to a junk yard and grab the whole ex knuckle with caliper and all and call it a day or is the ex caliper different then the integra caliper. Oh and should I grab the knuckle form an ef eg or ek civic. thanks
It may or may not be worth it depending. If the autocross doesn't put too much heat into the system, you might be fine with the stock setup. Just add some good pads, stainless lines and high temp fluid. Stoptech makes great versions of all those things. This will get you the greatest performance boost for least amount of money spent. It's not until your setup begins to fade under pressure that larger rotors become necessary. And you won't know that until you actually start racing the car.

Yes you can benefit from swaybars and suspension tuning with a stock chassis. But remember you don't want to just throw bigger sway-bars on the car all around. They have a very distinct effect on the balance & characteristics of the car, and you might not want to start making changes until you get the car on the track. Of course lowering the car and all that is fun for the street and looks good, so you kinda can't go wrong with that. Sticky tires are always the biggest bang for the buck though if you haven't already gone that route.

Yes you can go grab EX knuckles. They are the same as 94+ Integras. If the donor car is an EG, and has ABS, it actually come with Integra calipers. It's the EX coupe without ABS that has special front calipers. Visually they look the same as Integras, but they actually have a smaller piston diameter (same knuckle same rotor as Integra), and a larger more expensive brake pad. The smaller piston makes for a more aggressive brake setup. It allows the rear tires to work harder which actually reduces overall stopping distance (all else being equal). This brake setup is found on the B16 powered Del Sol VTEC and JDM EG6 Civic SiR2. And since these calipers have a slightly smaller piston, they only need the more-common/cheaper 7/8" master cylinder (from the 93-95 EX coupe). This is the brake setup I've recently switched to on my B-swapped 94 Civic CX (rear discs of course). I really like it, but my car is 100% street duty. Never raced it.
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Old 04-20-2012, 03:10 PM
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Default Re: BrakeExpert's Brake Chart Thread - Civic Brake Upgrades for EF, EG, EK and Integr

Originally Posted by needbout350 View Post
sry to be a pain in the a** on last thing will there be a difference in geometry when i put an ex/integer knuckle on my car. meaning will i need an alignment or is it all the same.
No difference in geometry. EG, DC & Del Sol suspension parts are 100% interchangeable.

But yes you need an alignment EVERY time you take apart the suspension. It doesn't go back together the same way it came apart. Consider investing in a lifetime alignment at a place like Firestone so you can go back after each time you work on the car. I actually went as far as learning to do my own alignments so I could work on my suspension whenever I wanted. So far I only mess with toe as my Honda's don't have camber adjustment. After a few attempts, and a steep learning curve, I got my cars tracking straight as an arrow: http://www.negative-camber.org/jam14...alignment.html
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Old 04-20-2012, 03:21 PM
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Default Re: BrakeExpert's Brake Chart Thread - Civic Brake Upgrades for EF, EG, EK and Integr

Originally Posted by 94eg! View Post
It may or may not be worth it depending. If the autocross doesn't put too much heat into the system, you might be fine with the stock setup. Just add some good pads, stainless lines and high temp fluid. Stoptech makes great versions of all those things. This will get you the greatest performance boost for least amount of money spent. It's not until your setup begins to fade under pressure that larger rotors become necessary. And you won't know that until you actually start racing the car.

Yes you can benefit from swaybars and suspension tuning with a stock chassis. But remember you don't want to just throw bigger sway-bars on the car all around. They have a very distinct effect on the balance & characteristics of the car, and you might not want to start making changes until you get the car on the track. Of course lowering the car and all that is fun for the street and looks good, so you kinda can't go wrong with that. Sticky tires are always the biggest bang for the buck though if you haven't already gone that route.

Yes you can go grab EX knuckles. They are the same as 94+ Integras. If the donor car is an EG, and has ABS, it actually come with Integra calipers. It's the EX coupe without ABS that has special front calipers. Visually they look the same as Integras, but they actually have a smaller piston diameter (same knuckle same rotor as Integra), and a larger more expensive brake pad. The smaller piston makes for a more aggressive brake setup. It allows the rear tires to work harder which actually reduces overall stopping distance (all else being equal). This brake setup is found on the B16 powered Del Sol VTEC and JDM EG6 Civic SiR2. And since these calipers have a slightly smaller piston, they only need the more-common/cheaper 7/8" master cylinder (from the 93-95 EX coupe). This is the brake setup I've recently switched to on my B-swapped 94 Civic CX (rear discs of course). I really like it, but my car is 100% street duty. Never raced it.
I already have all that stuff on my car and it handles great I get just the right amount of rotation out of the rear. I love it.

So your saying i should go with a non abs ex eg complete knuckle and the master cylinder form the same car which would give me the same set up as a del sol vtec? That sounds like a good deal to me. ill have to go shopping this week end thanks for the info.
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Old 04-20-2012, 03:37 PM
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Default Re: BrakeExpert's Brake Chart Thread - Civic Brake Upgrades for EF, EG, EK and Integr

One more thing. Will i need to get an alignment when i switch to the ex knuckle or is it the same geometry it would be nice if i didnt need to spend $80 on an alignment. thanks again.
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Old 04-20-2012, 03:46 PM
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Default Re: BrakeExpert's Brake Chart Thread - Civic Brake Upgrades for EF, EG, EK and Integr

Unfortunately you will. Between manufacturing variances and being "used", toe is guaranteed to be off. Mine sure was.

Advice: Take a close look at the used parts your planning on buying. The bigger knuckles have a larger wheel bearing. If any studs need to be replace, that wheel bearing MUST come out. There is NO other way. This requires a press, or some serious hand tools as well as new wheel bearings ($60+ each for OEM/NTN). I didn't know this and ended up with two bad studs on one knuckle. It was a lot of work to fix that hub up all by myself:

Wheel Bearing:
https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-civic-del-sol-1992-2000-1/front-wheel-bearing-replacement-harbor-freight-tool-set-66829-a-2984426/

Ball Joint:
https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-civic-del-sol-1992-2000-1/balljoint-replacment-autozone-free-rentals-27023-27164-a-2987276/

BTW: A re-manufactured 7/8 MC is really cheap at Autozone if you bring back your old 13/16 as core. Plus it has a lifetime warranty. Probably as cheap as a crusty one from the junk yard.... http://www.autozone.com/autozone/par...%2C1568%2C6831
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Old 04-20-2012, 06:10 PM
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Icon3 Re: BrakeExpert's Brake Chart Thread - Civic Brake Upgrades for EF, EG, EK and Integr

Sorry noob here. But i have a question about the trailing arm on my 98 integra. My trailing arm where the lcd bolts up snaped on me saw rust where it broke, so it was from one of the previous owner. But tomorrow i'm going to replace it. i called the junk yard they didn't have any integra besides DA's but they did have ex civic 92-00 and i know the trailing arm will fit but when people say with hub assembly. does that mean i have to use the whole civic hub assembly? or can i use the trailing arm off the civic with my integra hub assembly?
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Old 04-20-2012, 07:51 PM
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Default Re: BrakeExpert's Brake Chart Thread - Civic Brake Upgrades for EF, EG, EK and Integr

Originally Posted by kreeper View Post
Sorry noob here. But i have a question about the trailing arm on my 98 integra. My trailing arm where the lcd bolts up snaped on me saw rust where it broke, so it was from one of the previous owner. But tomorrow i'm going to replace it. i called the junk yard they didn't have any integra besides DA's but they did have ex civic 92-00 and i know the trailing arm will fit but when people say with hub assembly. does that mean i have to use the whole civic hub assembly? or can i use the trailing arm off the civic with my integra hub assembly?
If the donor car is a 4DR 92-95 EX, it will have rear discs and bolt right up and work perfectly.

If it's a 2DR 93-95 EX non ABS, it will have rear drums and you will have see if you can swap your rear-disc spindle over (not easy).

If it's a 2DR 94-95 EX ABS, it will have rear discs and will bolt right up and work perfectly.

If it's ANY 96-00 EX, it will have rear drums and you will have to swap your old spindle over.
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Old 04-23-2012, 03:06 PM
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Default Re: BrakeExpert's Brake Chart Thread - Civic Brake Upgrades for EF, EG, EK and Integr

Originally Posted by 94eg! View Post
Here in the US, the 03-05 Si didn't have a prop valve. Just a cheap 4-way joint. This is because this car was the first Civic equipped with EBD (electronic brake distribution). This is a computer controlled proportioning system that uses the ABS modulator to varying the front-to-rear bias depending on input from the wheel speed sensors. This is cool cause it allows you to take advantage of any additional weight you might put over the rear wheels (like rear passengers or luggage in the trunk). A conventional brake setup cannot do this. This image below will help explain.

So while you DEFINITELY SHOULD swap out the prop valve with ANY drum to disc conversion, it is not possible for you to do so as there is no rear-disc prop valve for your chassis available to switch to. Honda has done away with prop valves in late model 4-wheel disc vehicles.
Thanks dude, I did not know that.
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Old 04-26-2012, 07:56 AM
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Icon3 Re: BrakeExpert's Brake Chart Thread - Civic Brake Upgrades for EF, EG, EK and Integr

Originally Posted by Komodo View Post
A prop valve test would solve all. Interesting to note that only US model Hondas appear to use the same prop valve part number between drum and discs, JDM models have different props even between different disc models which makes sense.

Laziness/sloppy engineering/typo by Honda America perhaps?
Here's how I see it, correct me if I'm wrong:

2k Civic Si, 4 wheel disc, 4040 prop valve.
Keep the same fronts, toss drums on the back. You now need more fluid in the rear, so you change prop valves (this is an EX model now)

Take your EX, and make the front brakes smaller. The smaller calipers now take less fluid, keeping the EX prop valve would now give too much fluid to the rear, so you go back to the 4040 valve to balance things out.

I have a 2000 EX and did the Si rear conversion without changing the prop. valve. While I didn't get the rears to lock up on the street, they were much hotter than with the correct valve. There was also a noticeable difference; the nose didn't dive on heavy braking and my front rotors were warped but I could barely feel the shake once I made the swap. After putting an $8 valve on from a boneyard hx it brakes better, and you can feel the nose dive again.

Anyone with an EX I highly recommend swapping the prop. valve, anyone else it doesn't matter as they are already the same.

Also: If you have too much front bias, get an EX prop. valve and give that a shot. It'll shift more bias to the rear. There's too many possible combinations to know if it'll be too much rear until you try it, however.
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Old 04-26-2012, 02:04 PM
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Default Re: BrakeExpert's Brake Chart Thread - Civic Brake Upgrades for EF, EG, EK and Integr

Originally Posted by beren View Post
Here's how I see it, correct me if I'm wrong:

2k Civic Si, 4 wheel disc, 4040 prop valve.
Keep the same fronts, toss drums on the back. You now need more fluid in the rear, so you change prop valves (this is an EX model now)

Take your EX, and make the front brakes smaller. The smaller calipers now take less fluid, keeping the EX prop valve would now give too much fluid to the rear, so you go back to the 4040 valve to balance things out.

I have a 2000 EX and did the Si rear conversion without changing the prop. valve. While I didn't get the rears to lock up on the street, they were much hotter than with the correct valve. There was also a noticeable difference; the nose didn't dive on heavy braking and my front rotors were warped but I could barely feel the shake once I made the swap. After putting an $8 valve on from a boneyard hx it brakes better, and you can feel the nose dive again.

Anyone with an EX I highly recommend swapping the prop. valve, anyone else it doesn't matter as they are already the same.

Also: If you have too much front bias, get an EX prop. valve and give that a shot. It'll shift more bias to the rear. There's too many possible combinations to know if it'll be too much rear until you try it, however.
I am UK based so not familiar with US models, HX DX EX etc mean nothing to me unfortunately as they are not models that we get. What I know is there are generally 9.4", 10.3", 11.1" and 11.8" front setups and either drums, 9.4" discs or 10.2" discs on the rear.

Generally factory EK setups here will be either
F/R
9.4"/drums (1.4i)
10.3"/drums (1.4i/1.5iLS)
10.3"/9.4" (1.6 VTi)
11.1"/10.2" (EK9 CTR)

What do the various US models come with, so I know for future reference?
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Old 04-26-2012, 02:34 PM
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Default Re: BrakeExpert's Brake Chart Thread - Civic Brake Upgrades for EF, EG, EK and Integr

Originally Posted by Komodo View Post
I am UK based so not familiar with US models, HX DX EX etc mean nothing to me unfortunately as they are not models that we get. What I know is there are generally 9.4", 10.3", 11.1" and 11.8" front setups and either drums, 9.4" discs or 10.2" discs on the rear.

Generally factory EK setups here will be either
F/R
9.4"/drums (1.4i)
10.3"/drums (1.4i/1.5iLS)
10.3"/9.4" (1.6 VTi)
11.1"/10.2" (EK9 CTR)

What do the various US models come with, so I know for future reference?
2000 US EX is 10.3"/drums (1.6L SOHC Vtak)
- 4drs had ABS (all)
- 2drs had ABS option
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Old 04-26-2012, 02:38 PM
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Default Re: BrakeExpert's Brake Chart Thread - Civic Brake Upgrades for EF, EG, EK and Integr

What about the HX, CX, DX? I know the Si is top dog, but other than that I don't even know what order they go in performance wise...

Are those all hatchbacks?
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Old 04-26-2012, 03:11 PM
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Default Re: BrakeExpert's Brake Chart Thread - Civic Brake Upgrades for EF, EG, EK and Integr

All the rest are 9.4"/drum setups, SOHC:
- DX 1.6L basic Hatch, Sedan & Coupe
- HX 1.6L Vtak-E Special Fuel-economy Coupe
- CX 1.6L cheapo hatch (no AC/Radio standard)
- GX 1.6L Natural Gas Sedan (w/ ABS option)
- LX 1.6L Mid-level sedan

edited to fix mistakes.

Last edited by 94eg!; 04-27-2012 at 02:31 PM.
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Old 04-26-2012, 03:17 PM
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Default Re: BrakeExpert's Brake Chart Thread - Civic Brake Upgrades for EF, EG, EK and Integr

Gotcha, thanks for clearing that up!
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Old 04-27-2012, 04:27 AM
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Default Re: BrakeExpert's Brake Chart Thread - Civic Brake Upgrades for EF, EG, EK and Integr

- HX 1.5L Special Fuel-economy Coupe

I was under the impression the HX was an LX with a CVT. Are there any other differences?
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Old 04-27-2012, 02:28 PM
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Default Re: BrakeExpert's Brake Chart Thread - Civic Brake Upgrades for EF, EG, EK and Integr

Sorry I got mixed up. All the motors in the US EK's are 1.6L. But the HX has VTEC-E (economy) like the VX model EG.

Trim Levels: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_C...pment_.28US.29

Engines: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_C...ation)#Engines

BTW: Yes, CVT was an option in the HX, but the HX was always a coupe.
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