Stinkycheezmonky

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Silverpike &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Any particular reason you say that? They shouldn't be much different from the RA dynos already posted, except I would expect lower damping forces.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Less damping force = either too soft to be considered "sporty" or just plain underdamped (although the RAs have been considered overly stiff for street use, so comparing the two, softest option vs. hardest option, isn't so good). In addition to that, there is the lack of true shock adjustment, which has been shown with several JDM shocks on dynos.

killaBc1

Dam i have so much to learn

Silverpike

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sscguy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Less damping force = either too soft to be considered "sporty" or just plain underdamped (although the RAs have been considered overly stiff for street use, so comparing the two, softest option vs. hardest option, isn't so good). In addition to that, there is the lack of true shock adjustment, which has been shown with several JDM shocks on dynos.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes, but less damping is necessary because of the lower spring rate offered in the SS model. There is a large difference in spring rate between the SS and RA models, and the difference in damping rate should occur appropriately. Tein does do a good job of matching spring rate/damping force/automotive weight.

Adjustability though is a different issue. Most people understand that the lower Tein models lack true height adjustment (without inducing preload). I am curious though about the perceived adjustment rate issues at low shock speeds. This is new information to me.

Stinkycheezmonky

I'm sure they're pretty closely matched to the springs accompanying them, but those spring rates are low (8/4, 7/3 something like that). Overall, the whole setup just seems soft, especially compared to other JDM setups.

suspendedHatch

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You shouldnt need one - compression controls the unsprung weight, and once its set you shouldnt have to worry about it. "set it, and forget it!"</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ha ha that's funny. Never mind the effect of front bound for turn-in, or rear bound for launch, mid corner, and corner exit.

So when the front of the car dives forward from hard braking, that's unsprung weight? OK

.RJ

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by shaundrake &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ha ha that's funny. Never mind the effect of front bound for turn-in, or rear bound for launch, mid corner, and corner exit.

So when the front of the car dives forward from hard braking, that's unsprung weight? OK</TD></TR></TABLE>

http://www.bimmerhaus.com/tech/shocktuningTN.html

http://www.amfmotorsports.com/prod/koni.1.1.htm

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Bump damping controls the unsprung weight of the vehicle (wheels, axles, etc.). It controls the upward movement of the suspension as when hitting a bump in the track. It should not be used to control the downward movement of the vehicle when it encounters dips. Also, it should not be used to control roll or bottoming</TD></TR></TABLE>

Next?

carl_aka_carlos

hey slammed_93!

those koni graphs look great! where'd j00 get j00r koni's?

Tyson-

Rebound is the most important always always always. Really really knowledgeable racers that would actually know when and how to adjust compression appropriately do so, but the average club-racer doesn't know what to do with compression. Hell, I wouldn't know what to do with a set of DA koni's, one more thing that I could set wrong!

azian21485

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">http://www.bimmerhaus.com/tech/shocktuningTN.html

http://www.amfmotorsports.com/prod/koni.1.1.htm

Next?</TD></TR></TABLE>

i was reading that guide....i thought yellows didn't have clicks? nm...koni website says sweeps....bimmer says clicks...oh well

CRX Lee

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by azian21485 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i was reading that guide....i thought yellows didn't have clicks? nm...koni website says sweeps....bimmer says clicks...oh well</TD></TR></TABLE>

You are mixing several different models of Koni units here. The rebound on the normal Koni Sport does not have clicks but can be placed in anywhere within the adjustment range. The Bimmerhaus mention of clicks is on bump or compression damping. All double adjustable Konis have click adjustments for bump. The Bimmerhaus site mentions sweeps when talking about rebound and this is primarily based on the 2812, 3011/3012, and 8212/8211/8216, and a few 8241s with an adjustment window that you "sweep" and adjuster through. One sweep = 1/4 turn of adjuster rotation on a non-window style rebound adjuster like most Sports you guys are used to seeing.

As mentioned, the Bimmerhaus statement is from the Koni Racing catalog and so it the text of the AMF site as well.

azian21485

cool thanks for clearing that up

PIC Performance

Ok, so what from what I can gather, the closer the line are to the x-axis, the softer the dampening is; the further, the stiffer.
Adjustment effect can be seen by the distance between each plot-line for each adjustment setting on the graph. So if its adjustment is effective at low speeds, then the lines would be further apart at low piston speeds, and similarly for mid and high speeds.
I don't understand how you can tell if a shock is under-dampened or over-dampened. I know that y-axis represents a measurement of force, and the x-axis represents a measurement of piston speed over time, but how can you tell by looking at the relationship between the numbers whether or not the shock is under/over-dampened?

CRX Lee

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Noob4life &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't understand how you can tell if a shock is under-dampened or over-dampened. I know that y-axis represents a measurement of force, and the x-axis represents a measurement of piston speed over time, but how can you tell by looking at the relationship between the numbers whether or not the shock is under/over-dampened?</TD></TR></TABLE>
You have a prety good grip on reading the graphs but you can't tell if you are underdamped or overdamped by looking at a dyno graph because this is data of a shock alone on a dyno testing machine. There is no spring or mass in this situation so you can't make a judgment.

You can look to see where the forces are low or high and see how big the adjustment range is to help give you more opportunit for tuning but you still need to know what piston speeds the car is generally going to opearte in for much of it's function, what spring rates it might see, etc. Dynos are great machines for collecting data and printing it in a form that you can use to help apply it to aspects of the car but the dyno is still only a tool that you can use to help you get to your goal. Liek any tool, it can be used properly or misused as well. Looking at a dyno graph is one way to document exactly what the shock can and can't do but as one of our R&D guys will happily remind you "You don't drive a dyno" so you use the data to help the situation but you still need to have it in the context of the car and drive it to get the working package right. Dynos and data loggers and oscillation tested are great tools but you still need "butts in seats" to apply it all correctly.

suspendedHatch

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Bump damping controls the unsprung weight of the vehicle (wheels, axles, etc.). It controls the upward movement of the suspension as when hitting a bump in the track. It should not be used to control the downward movement of the vehicle when it encounters dips. Also, it should not be used to control roll or bottoming</TD></TR></TABLE>

In no way does this quote contradict what I said. So what is it that you're trying to prove? I don't have time right now to go check out those links but I will later. In any case, if one or two or three racers share an opinion that you should use an adjustment a certain way, it doesn't prove anything. If the adjustment has an effect on the handling with minimal side effects, then it should be exploited. Do I have bound adjustable struts on my Civic? No. But you can bet your *** they made a difference on my kart.

.RJ

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by shaundrake &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">In no way does this quote contradict what I said. So what is it that you're trying to prove? </TD></TR></TABLE>

I wasnt trying to contradict you, I was trying to correct your erroneous statment.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't have time right now to go check out those links but I will later. In any case, if one or two or three racers share an opinion that you should use an adjustment a certain way, it doesn't prove anything.</TD></TR></TABLE>

One or two racers != Koni supplied setup guide. I have seen this in other shock tuning material as well from other manufacturers - they didnt develop it based on the feedback of "one or two or three racers".

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> But you can bet your *** they made a difference on my kart.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Karts dont have dampers or springs.

PIC Performance

I get what you're saying.
Say then that, from reading a dyno graph for Shock A, I have determined that it seems to be able to provide sufficient dampening performance for my desired application. How would I go about matching springs to it? It seems that when people choose coilovers, they are only concerned with spring rates, and just choose Shock A without considering its dampening abilities. If springs are only one part of the equation, this doesn't seem like the best way to choose a coilover.
In other words, it doesn't seem like Shock A, with X dampening rate, would match up very well with both 6k and 14k spring rates; it could only be one or the other. If you choose the wrong spring rate, you're stuck with mismatched shocks and springs right?
And along the same lines, if you are going to get dampening adjustable shocks, how would you choose what springs to go along with that shocks range of adjustability? Is it just trial and error?

Stinkycheezmonky

Trial and error sort of. Ask around before buying stuff to get a general idea. For example, for track-day/street Civics, a popular combination seems to be something like Koni Yellows with 350lb/450lb springs (up to about 600lb/800lb springs, but that's just a bit ridiculous to me for street use...although it's all about personal preference ). To see the range of spring rates a shock can withstand, contact the manufacturer directly, as they could tell you for sure. And in most cases, said manufacturer can rebuild their shocks to suit whatever specific spring rates you need.

CRX Lee

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Noob4life &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How would I go about matching springs to it? It seems that when people choose coilovers, they are only concerned with spring rates, and just choose Shock A without considering its dampening abilities. If springs are only one part of the equation, this doesn't seem like the best way to choose a coilover.
In other words, it doesn't seem like Shock A, with X dampening rate, would match up very well with both 6k and 14k spring rates; it could only be one or the other. If you choose the wrong spring rate, you're stuck with mismatched shocks and springs right?
And along the same lines, if you are going to get dampening adjustable shocks, how would you choose what springs to go along with that shocks range of adjustability? Is it just trial and error?</TD></TR></TABLE>

First let's back up and say that you should not purchase springs because they "match" your shocks. Springs are upstream in the suspension from the shocks so you should select springs based on your car and your wants and needs for it. Springs carry the weight of the car and for a given input will establish basically how much movement you will get.

From there, you need to have dampers that will properly control the motions of the car on the springs. Yes, good shocks will cost more than good springs normally but don't put the cart before the horse. Don't underspring your car for your needs because you're shocks aren't too great.

The wider the adjustment range you have and the broader the piston speed range that the effect occurs in, the more the possibility of tuning them to fit your needs and to work with a wider range of spring rates. Just picking numbers, if you have one tool that can adjust from a value of 1-10 and another one to adjust from 1-50, obviously the 1-50 will give you more tuning range to cover more bases and find what you need. Don't be fooled by counting adjustment clicks though as there are shocks on the market that may have 30 clicks but actually only a 10% range of adjustment while another may have 5 or no clicks and cover 100% range of adjustment. So it would be helpful to see a dyno chart especailly with and adjustable shock so you know what and where the true changes occur and not simply hope that a lot of clicks simply means a lot of range.

Still when it comes down to it, you need to do your homework and see what sounds like should be the best spring set-up for your car and then see what should be the best shocks combination for the car. If the shocks are adjustable (and for performance and aggressive springs and use, they sure make it helpful to get the most from the package), then the more real working range you have the better. Once you have made your purchase, then you drive the car and tune with what you have to get what you want. Your area and road quality have a fair amount of input so what works well where you are may not be ideal in Minneapolis, Boston, or LA. As you develop as driver or as you simply get older and less interested in compromising (as I see myself on the street), you can find that your preferred set-up might also slowly change. This may mean the same parts with a different adjustment or you may change some or all of the parts as things change.

Mixing the data you can gather, the opportunties that you might get from different products and your preferences and needs is going to get the best package for you if you re willing to invest the time and money. If you aren't willing, then you can follow the lead of companies with good reputations for quality products or other people and there is a pretty good likelihood that it will work fine for you.

ShaunRR

Hey Lee, Steve told me that the shock dyno is in a few magazine adds so you can post the graph here. You can email him to be sure.

PIC Performance

Ah very good very good, I get it now. Thanks for clearing that all up

ShaunRR

Here is the Omnipower dyno:

MAV3RiCK478

rotated for easier viewing

MAV3RiCK478

so can someone explain this to me?? sorry for being a noob when reading the graph. i also want to know if this was for the street (6k or 8K) or sport version?

MattD@Stoptech

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MAV3RiCK478 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so can someone explain this to me?? sorry for being a noob when reading the graph.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Start by reading what was written in this thread.

MAV3RiCK478

i did read and still couldnt understand. even looked at the slide show on the koni site and was still lost.

suspendedHatch

AFAIK, karts have shocks. Maybe you're thinking of something else. Believe it or not, we raced these things in the desert in Mexico. I also grew up around dune buggies and we put any engine and suspension we wanted on those. My brother and I worked on a Toyota for desert racing. I was being vague because people will say that my experience with that doesn't apply here. In tinkering with sport compacts since I got one 5 years ago I've found my past experience to be very helpful.

The original quote you gave does not refute what I said because I didn't suggest you should use bump adjustment to control body roll.

I think you are misunderstanding the quote you are taking off those sites (its the same Koni guide on both sites). I don't think Koni would disagree with me if I said it could be beneficial to alter the bump adjustment relationship front to rear slightly off the optimum settings (by optimum settings I mean the settings you will arrive at if you follow their guide). For instance, softening the rear bound and increasing the front rebound helps to launch a FF drive car. Launching a FF is a real hassle and it could make a difference even though it is only during once in a road race. If my Civic were set up this way and it was successful, should I now set the rear bound as Koni suggested and lose this advantage? Of course I'd try it cuz I always try out a reputable theory, but if it didn't work I'm not going to ignore my personal experience and obey it as law.

If I wanted to alter how the car handles heavy braking in to a turn but I didn't want to change my rear rebound setting because it was set for some other purpose (like corner entry), why not **** with the front bound and see if I can make an improvement?

The guide says it should not be done offhand in a single sentence but it does not say why. I'm convinced that it is telling you how to get your initial settings and you are free to make your fine adjustments if you find an improvement.

Not to mention that I have two suspension tuning books in my lap that cover how to make fine handling adjustments using the bound settings. One is High Performance Handling Handbook by Don Alexander and the other is Honda/Acura something or other (cover is ripped off) by Mike Kojima. I think I'd take these over one sentence from a Koni installation guide.