TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

The formula for creating a fantastic catch can is rather simple. The standard cylindrical-shaped catch can works perfectly fine, especially when using a top mounted K&N styled filter.

Direct-Injected engines typically would use an oil-separator type of catch can, due to the design of the DI engine’s ability to not use fuel to help “lubricate” the valve system.

I’ve found that a drain-back system is best to use, as even with some condensation that may develop during cold start, it does not effect crankcase pressure enough to cause oil dilution or contamination of any kind.

There is no need to tap the valve cover baffles in order to relieve proper crankcase ventilation, when an improved PCV –Drainback system will do the job on a street car setup.

The history behind even performing these -10AN fitting valve cover setups was strictly for certain rules regarding sanctioned drag racing events. Most of those rules involved having a reservoir of some sort that is able to contain the same amount of oil that the engine is able to displace; so, in many cases with Hondas that’s anywhere from 1.5-2.4 litres of oil. That’s all. For those that have the ability to weld and fabricate, it was just easier to run these lines to containers that replaced the stock location of the battery. It was just easier. But that doesn’t mean that a PCV system that allows crankcase oil to go in one direction can’t be used.

I’ve had crankcase ventilation issues before, and a former Indy ChampCar race tech and myself came up with a much better system where you can keep your nice valve cover that utilizes the stock PCV “nipple” located on your original valve cover (not some mini-filter).

So, here’s what you want to use. You can piece these components yourself, but I suggest that you use a Drain-back style kit with a few additional components. Here’s a list of what you need.

* x1 aluminum catch can that utilizes three -10AN male bungs with a mounting bracket (two on the sides of the catch can, and one facing the bottom towards the ground)



*x3 -10AN 90* hose ends. Two of them for the sides of the catch can, one at the bottom of the can to go to the -28mm to -10AN adapter fitting for the PCV (shown above also)


-10AN for the canister



Notice the two ports on the canister, and the one one the bottom. All are -10AN. Make sure the canister is as high above the block as possible.

Filter is used last

filter is installed last



* 8-10 ft. of-10 AN steel braided hose or black Pro Flow 300 series Nylon hose (I like the SS lines better and not the nylon as it is a bit more durable.)




* x3 -10AN straight hose ends that connect to the stainless lines on the block to connect to the catch can (or you can use the 45* one on the block as an option)




*x2 Freeze plug 28mm to -10AN block plug fittings for the back of the block






[img]file:///C:\Users\SIMONP~1\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\ 01\clip_image005.jpg
* x1 -10AN block plug adapter or 28mm to -10AN adapter for B20 block (this adapter goes where the original PCV “black box” was located

[img]file:///C:\Users\SIMONP~1\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\ 01\clip_image007.jpg



* x1 -10AN 45° seal hose end. This will go from the adapter fitting on the back of the block to the bottom of the catch can as part of the “’drainback” system, or from the bottom of the catch can











* x1 -10AN billet aluminum hose separator to keep the two lines on the catch can separated (optional)


*x 1 breather filter

[img]file:///C:\Users\SIMONP~1\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\ 01\clip_image010.jpg


* x1 Mazda , Ford, Volvo GM, or some 1-way OEM turbocharged engine check valve to fit to the valve cover. Do not use one from a Honda.

[img]file:///C:\Users\SIMONP~1\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\ 01\clip_image012.jpg


*3 ft of 3/8” 300psi of oil / coolant rubber hose


Notice it routes from the valve cover to the Intake manifold just like a standard PCV system

Notice the orientation of the check valve

View of the routing from the bottom of the Intake Manifold

porofek

iTrader: (1)

Thank you sir! I'm currently running a Mishimoto Compact Baffled Catch Can and have wedged that between my intake manifold vacuum source and the stock PCV system. How efficient is this setup on about 10 pounds of boost?

Stock Black Box -> PCV valve -> Mishimoto Compact Catch Can -> Intake Manifold

I will add this to my list of "to-do" mods when I plan on pushing more boost after I rebuild my block. Or I would look into doing this sooner rather than later if my current setup isn't sufficient enough (it's rarely driven anyway)

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

It's been effective for over 30psi from what ive tested. I'm also not spilling condensation/oil mix through the filter at start up, either...

Try it with the mishimoto if you want. I modified a B&R fitings catch can system., which is much more complete

Txdragon

Is there a horsepower level or psi level consideration for a catch can? Above xxx hp or above xx psi?

AZ_CIVIC

iTrader: (1)

You bet there is.

Txdragon

**in whispered voice**
What is it?

AZ_CIVIC

iTrader: (1)

I would say when you start pushing 700 plus you’re going want to step up your breather setup but like shodan said that is fine for street use. Over 1000 you’ll need a setup like mine to relieve the pressure.

Txdragon

That's a bit! I'd figured it would do well to cover those limits since it wasnt really touched on in an otherwise nicely written DIY. The catch can seems to draw a large picture of confusion for a LOT of people, at least for sure the crowds I speak with locally. **shrug** It IS however mentioned by most, especially since my setup has not included one. It's good that they even recognize a catch can and notice its absence. Lol!
Although, 700hp and "street car" seem like an oxymoron. I have suspicion that I might have seen some benefit from one since I did notice it appeared to have been spraying some oil through my breather filter before; it was drenched and there was a light film on everything, and that was only on 17 psi and a bit under 350hp. Maybe because it was an "open" system with the otherwise stock pcv setup and the breather filter used? Either way, it shows that a LOT of oil would have been blown back into the system that may otherwise have been unwanted on such a common build as mine; around 300-350.

In short, it seems a good opportunity to touch up on this particular aspect for this awesome how-to!

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

The setup i proposed is much more of street and circuit use over 500whp, which covers a large majority of users here. But again, AZ_CIVIC's is much more for drag racing specific only, for 1000whp, in which that may be necessary.. As I stated in the beginning of this mini write up

aw614

The check valve should prevent something like this from happening? (Solo-x's post)
https://honda-tech.com/forums/road-r.../#post38730576
I ran a similar setup to the link I posted and it worked on the street, but anytime it was autocrossed hard, I would experience similar issues.

Though I am leaning towards the health of my motor more so, but I've read of others experiencing the same thing on healthy n/a motors which makes me interested in trying your setup instead, as I have all the parts to reconvert back to it again. Right now I am just valve cover venting after seeing what other road racers have done, but I really want to run the checkvalve as it worked much better for street use.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

The check valve used in my system is a one way check valve used specifically for turbo cars ( although it works on NA also), because it is nothing like the Honda PCV; its a true one way that doesnt allow any reversal of that pressure.

The Honda PVC system breather is a POSITIVE pressure ventilation system.The air from the intake blows into the valve cover. It is NOT a negative pressure ventilation system...it does NOT suck air from the valvecover to the intake.

Breathers remove the source of positive ventilation that repressurizes the POSTIVE CRANKCASE VENTILATION (PCV) valve.

There is less pressure in the crank when you add a breather at the valve cover. The consequence of this is you get more positive blow-by from the combustion chamber past the piston rings and into the crankcase. More blow-by means less cylinder pressure...less cylinder pressure means the burn is slower and less complete...the result is more emissions and less power.

If you want to do this right and remove oil vapor from the circulating crankcase before it goes into the intake valve then, get an oilcatch can and put a breather on the catch can. Then place the catch can in between the valve cover breather and the PCV valve.

Disconnecting the breather tube, which blows fresh intake air into the valve cover, and placing a breather on the valve cover just creates more blow-by and emissions. Eventually you have so much blow-by, you lose power.

I am very satisfied with this method, love changing valve covers whenever I want, no muss, and no fuss, and want to share the love.

porofek

iTrader: (1)

Hey TheShodan,

Once again thanks for a clear and concise write up. Regarding my question, I think I should have been a bit more clear (my fault). I was actually inquiring about how efficient my current setup is at 10 pounds. Let me know if you need a diagram, but in summary I pretty much added this (https://www.mishimoto.com/compact-ba...an-2-port.html) in between my intake manifold vacuum source and stock B18C5 black box

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

After seeing the promotional videos, I can see where this can be a good use, but I guess, it leaves a few questions in my mind. Like AZ_Civic said about my system, it's definitely for street use (10psi is irrelevant unless we're seeing some Airflow lbs/min (cfm/min) information. It has little to do with blowby for your fuel octane levels to stop detonation (knowing that some oil will get a small bit of fuel contamination, but that's only possibly an issue with Ethyl-alcohol based systems like those using E85.)

Here are the questions I have that they don't answer.

1) After the oil is separated, you empty out the canister?
2 )What's the capacity of the canister, for when you have to dump it out (since this doesn't drain back)
3) Does it allow a drainback so that you're not emptying the can all the time and checking oil levels to make sure they are sufficient?
4) Are replacement filters available? Is Mishimoto the only source for them, or are there alternatives?
5) This device seems to assume that you're using PCV or some sort of vacuum source by way of the intake manifold so that the inlet/outlet air diverters operate effectively? (I don't see that in any of the information)



It's definitely a fancy little number, and I think that it will work to a degree, but point #5 is what I think needs to be followed in order for it to be effective, IMHO.

If you have a diagram of how you have it setup, I'm sure it will at least address the other questions I listed.

Thanks for the product update!

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

That's exactly what's happening. Crankcase pressure from the windage tray is pressurizing from the creation of boost pressure, and because there is no vacuum from the intake manifold to counter the effects, crankcase oil is just going to push up through the block into the catch can lines (which ever way it can) and create a nice mess through the filter. That's what happened to me at first. Then, you're smelling petrol all in the bay, and when you wash the car, you see "rainbow water" coming out of the bottom of the bay believing you're leaking something when you aren't. So, this is where my buddy and I looked at the OE system compared to what we had around and found that it was the lack of one-way vacuum that was causing the most trouble. Considering that the valvetrain saw the least amount of crankcase pressure, and the baffles in the valve cover were really just to redistribute any residual oil flow that went to the head, we thought of something else to keep it OEM...Plus . (We never experienced these issues with the stock PCV at lower boost pressure levels of 230whp and less, so we knew the OEM PCV was doing something right, just wasn't sure what it was at the time)

The how-to is here. just gotta hook it up and try it out. If you want step-by-step, I gotta leave that to others. I just don't have the time anymore. But people are smart. I at least laid out the groundwork.

porofek

iTrader: (1)

Hey Shodan. As always, I appreciate your detailed response. Unfortunately I don't have any numbers for you as far as cfm is concerned in my setup.

To answer your questions though:

1) Yes, you empty out the can every now and then. Additionally (and to answer question 3), the can does have a third 3/8" NPT port on the bottom that is plugged in from the factory. Mishimoto offers a drainback kit that includes a valve so that you can drain the fluids without removing the can, though it seems rather pricey for what it is (https://www.mishimoto.com/compact-ba...drain-kit.html). I could just purchase a hose and some fittings and create my own.
2) I could not find any information as far as capacity of the canister. It would seem like a good idea to add some fluids in there to see how much it can hold before it goes over the internal baffles for information purposes. Though the real test would be how many miles, under normal driving conditions, will it take to fill the catch can. I have yet to run this test, I suppose I should start keeping track of my miles now since I've only driven the car for about 200 miles since the turbo has been installed.
3) Answered in number 1
4) They advertise the can as serviceable, including the internal components, with a simple cleaning solution of soap and water. They do not state the thread size of the 50 micron bronze filter but I imagine once I find out the size I should be able to find a replacement easily online when it comes time to replace it.
5) That is correct, it is assuming you are keeping your stock PCV system and using this supplemental add-on. The kit I purchases was a universal kit but they do offer vehicle specific kits and the ones I've seen seem to keep the stock PCV system. I don't think this product is meant to replace it.

Here's a diagram of my setup:

wunfstgsr

I'm currently using a very similar set up sold by project import.com I used this kit because it comes with everything needed but.. it doesn't have a check valve like you incorporated in your system, what's the draw back for not using the check valve? Also I was not able to mount the can where I wanted do to lack of space, currently my can sits like this, is it not as effective where I mounted it,

https://www.projectimport.com/store/...-lok-fittings/

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Remember what the purpose of a PCV valve is (Positive Crankcase Ventilation), and why it's used in the first place for many OEM vehicles. The PCV valve routes air and fuel that is normally slightly pressurized from the crankcase in the block (from the windage tray, oil pan, oil galleries, etc) back through the intake manifold to the cylinders rather than allowing them to escape into the atmosphere. When a turbocharger is used, that crankcase pressure is increased exponentially as a result of higher cylinder pressures which force combustion gases past the piston rings at a faster rate into the crankcase, to the point where that increased crankcase pressure starts to negatively affect oil seals, gaskets and "weeping" in other places of the engine, which is why the system needs to be ventilated in the 1st place.

The PCV valve being used is the difference between a street or circuit car vs. an all out drag race car. Why is that important? I'll show you below.


A light spring holds the valve in the open position when the engine is off or when there’s a drop in manifold vacuum. This results in maximum crankcase ventilation. When the engine is at idle, high manifold vacuum pulls the valve upward blocking the port to the intake manifold. A PCV Valve uses Spring pressure against the vacuum pressure by the intake manifold (which is where your main turbocharger vacuum source should be anyway..



Here's a diagram of a standard PCV valve like used in a Naturally Aspirated Honda.



So, here's what happens when the PCV normally works, even in FI vehicles.



The difference between the Street/Circuit/Hillclimb car and the all-out drag car (in AZ_CIVIC's example) is that the Drag race car doesn't have to worry about surging idle or drivability issues in partial throttle (Which is why most drag cars don't use FITVs either). This is true especially in driving situations in which the BOV is constantly opening and closing within partial throttle, which could exacerbate these surging symptoms. (This really happens most at cold start where crankcase pressure is highest, and vacuum is at its lowest), while the drag race car is mainly at full-throttle ALL of the time, and doesn't care about drivability or surging idle, because it's going down one direction for a very brief period of time.

Without a good PCV attached you will more likely experience crankcase oil backup issues that will go right up through the breather, causing a large mess of oil within the engine bay and render the breather useless. (And possibly a fire if you're not careful). In other cases, when using no PCV and only using the valve covers as the ventilation point, it acts as a stuck open PCV valve; Causing you to drain the can more often than necessary, have surging idle issues, and possibly even oil contamination problems if you're using a drain-back system.

The reason for me not using an OEM PCV valve is simple; it doesn't act as a true one way valve. The spring is much lighter and less robust than one used from a factory turbocharged application, that is accustomed to increased cylinder pressures and faster combustion rates. This is also why I routed the PCV valve at the same location as the OEM and connected it to the same spot on the intake manifold as the OEM.

So, for wunfstgsr's case, your catch can is ok at the location (Since it's obviously above the level of the engine block), but not the shortest routing if you want a back of the block system, and can still cause some idle surge issues later on. For NA it's fine as you wouldn't have as high an increase of crankcase pressure (even with higher static compression). But I would change the setup to be more befitting of an FI application if you want the maximum benefit of the system.

wunfstgsr

Thank you I will deff look into getting that check valve, is there a common place like auto zone I can buy that valve or do I have to order it online from the Volvo dealer.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

I'll get you one. Just PM me

wunfstgsr

Sweet!

Pssst!

Are the Freeze plug adapters available for purchase or are they a custom built DIY piece?

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Oh they aren't completely custom. You can get them HERE

DaX

iTrader: (1)

@TheShodan

What about D-series blocks that don't have the two ports on the back? Would you say that valve cover venting is the best option for those?

Help me understand how this setup (mainly the one-way valve and hose from IM to valve cover) operates in a few scenarios below.
At high vacuum (decelerating or really any time the throttle plate is closed) is this system drawing fresh air into the crankcase through the catch can filter?

At a low vacuum (open throttle but before boost) is the system mostly passive, with the engine only drawing a slight vacuum on the valve cover? The rest of the crankcase pressure is vented to atmosphere through the catch can?

Under boost, the one way valve closes and this portion of the system does not allow the valve cover to pressurize, and any crankcase ventilation is pushed out through the catch can to atmosphere?

Is the main point of the additional hose/check valve to provide vacuum to the top of the crankcase at idle / high vacuum situations, and if so, why is it only important to do so at these situations?

dlx111

Just looking for some clarification, so is the stock pcv valve on a b series motor just left hooked up like normal? and the 3/8" hose with the one way valve you have routed from the valve cover just under the IM and connected to the IM?

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Well, yes and no.You are correct, my friend. The routing hook up the Valve cover & IM are the same, but not using a stock Honda OEM PCV at all.You need to using a factory turbo booster check valve