ej1 rep

I have never really heard a solid anwser to this question, I personally have a manual rack on my car (94 Hatch) which seems like the preferable option. But I think powersteering would almost make it a lot easier to drive fast(and with less fatigue). I have only been in one track event so I cant really make a whole hearted descision on this. Is the manual rack with the quick ratio rack and pinion kit, the cats meow? Let me hear your opinions

STN_Pat

I reinstalled one recently and it's the best. Love it. Let you be much more aggressive and with much less fatigue.

People who can't feel the road with a PS generally also think C pillar bar make a difference.

JBrettHowell

+1 for a mostly autox, rarely road course setup. You do have to pay more attention to what the steering wheel is telling you about how happy the front tires are, but the quicker ratio plus reduced effort is worth it imho.

Atmosfear

iTrader: (18)

IMO this is one of those things that just comes down to application and personal preference (physical fitness also plays a part).

I have 2 EG hatchbacks. One is a track car that I drive, the other is a rally car that my wife drives.

My car has a manual rack with a OEM ITR helical LSD (the Quaife QSR is in my future). I track the car and autocross frequently and do not personally experience any fatigue so the manual rack is fine for me.

The rally car however has a Kaaz LSD, it used to have a manual rack and it kicked my wifes *** to the point it was not any fun for her to drive it. I converted it to power steering now it is much more manageable and she loves the car.

night

What kinda L2L are we talking here? how much of a change? I don't know civics, but my cars power rack is 2.84 and there is one year that has a manual with 3.25 turns. I'm not sure that is worth the trouble.

Johnny Mac

It all depends on how aggressive your wheel/tire, caster, steering rack ratios, and even steering wheel diameter. My CRX with manual rack is fine, but I use the stock rack, stock caster, and 225 Toyo RA1's on 7" wheels with a 27mm offset. I can drive it all day on track. Now, if I put 225 Hoosiers, on 0 offset wheels, with a Quaife rack, and larger positive caster values, it would be difficult to find the racing line on track at lower speeds. It would also be much more fatigueing.

The only downsides to factory power steering is some parasitic power loss, extra nose weight of around 10 pounds, and extra complexity including a belt that may result in more failures. But the power loss issue can be mitigated somewhat by underdriving the pulley or by going with an electric power steering unit. All told though, I really believe the power steering will help the driver stay focused better with less fatigue resulting in more consistent and faster overall laptimes.

night

I've had my own idea of running a p/s pump with an a/c electric clutch. Punch the gas, ecu cuts "a/c" like it does anyway, and no big deal. But how in hell you get that pulley setup on a pump I dunno yet.
Unless someone has more budget minded electric pumps around? I've not seen one.

slammed_93_hatch

MR2 setup can be done fairly cheap.. You have to search but you can find the pumps for $300, the rest is wiring and a $50 hydrolic line

Jaker

That's likely when you'll need the power steering the most: when the torque and alignment are trying to wrench the steering wheel out of your hands.

wupike21

I removed power steering from my integra and find it perfect for driving on the track... Not fatiguing at all, although I have *some* arm muscles and sit relatively close to the wheel to take advantage of larger muscle groups.

I also added a breather when I looped my rack, that helps out a lot. I didn't like PS when I first got the teg, it was one of the first things I did... I can't even tell that PS isn't there once I'm moving. Now around the paddock, that's another story.

sander

You could do that much easier with an electric pump (like the MR2 one that Jimmy spoke of) that had a shut off relay controlled by an ECU. For example, if you had a relay in the power circuit to the pump, you could control it with any good ECU and a string potentiometer as a steering angle sensor. Just set the steering angle up in the computer.

If steering angle is within +/- 10 Degrees, you could have the ECU open the relay and as a result the pump would turn off. As soon as you exceed that threshold, you could have the ECU close the relay and turn the pump back on.

Good ECU is the problem with that answer though. AEM or Hondata doesn't have the ability to determine an output function based on a user defined analog input. Motec could do it with out breaking a sweat though.

-sander

joenationwide

Ive had two Civics that started out with manual racks. Maybe something was wrong with them, but the first Civic manual steering effort changed dramatically with bump steer. It was completely unpredictable and actually scary in the middle of a turn when hitting a bump or a dip. Also the steering ratio was terrible. The current Civic's original manual rack felt extremely vague on center and floaty at high speeds. So both cars I swapped in an Integra PS system and I have loved it completely.

When I'm on track I don't like using muscles in my arms to control the wheel, I like using my fingertips. I still get plenty of feedback from the P/S rack, and with the upper A-arm swap for more caster, I get a better on center feeling.

For me, I only run P/S, track and autox (unless maybe I had a sub 2000lb car).

night

well, to me having oem crap everywhere it made sense. World Pac that we use doesn't have those electric pumps and spending that much on a used something makes me pause. I will do some more digging though.

I have Neptune and I think it may be able to do that. I am just getting familiar with it myself so I can't say for sure.





My car actually will be in the 2k range with me in it. It never had p/s because I had better things to put money into. Way back when it was stock 13" rims it was hardish to turn, simply putting 16" rims/stiffer sidewalls made all the diff in the world.
But, I have yet to get on a track with it so I am keeping my mind open.

ej1 rep

good info.....I think I kinda want to swap a PS rack in my car for the track. Im not sure, i will have to have another go at it on the track before I make my decision.

Jaker

I have a complete electric power steering pump setup for a 1993 MR2 that I'll let go for cheap. I have the pump, the controller, the relay, the reservoir, some pieces of power steering line to make up Honda/Toyota lines with, and all the electrical plugs with 6" or so of wiring to make wiring it up a breeze.

sander

I doubt it, but prove me wrong, please.
Remember, for that to work though, you would have to be able to take a 0-5v input, and below or above a certain threshold, have it activate an ON or OFF function. Most output parameters in simple computers like that are based around ON/OFF inputs, not linear analog.

WorldPac is great, if you're looking for parts for a BMW or Mercedes! I used to use speed dial all the time.

JBrettHowell

For 5G's the specs are as follows:
Overall ratio
17.5:1 (Power)
19.0:1 (Manual)
Turns, lock to lock
3.58 (Power)
3.88 (Manual)

So in my case (I can only use a rack available in a 5G) the power rack is not all that good, but the manual rack really sucks, so it's better and legal.

night

ok... gonna have to measure my steering wheel when I get home.

lwnslw

My EK doesn't have power steering. 235/45/17 toyo888 and don't have any problems.
Sunday I drove the tires off the car. Maybe around 4 hours of track time and didn't get tired. I sure think that ps will help a lot. Anything that helps the driver stay focused and relax helps.
I wish I could do air conditioned too.

G2 Speed

Get a turbo, and you can ^^^

petwhookie

iTrader: (-1)

My DC doesnt have ps, running 205/50. Ive brought it out to track events without much problem or fatigue. BUT I do hit the gym on a daily basis...

heel_touge

love my PS in the r.
i drove for years without it, but once i had it i found its not a bad thing to keep.
steering inputs are effortless, i don't need to white knuckle. i put a bigger pulley on and got some of the powerless feeling(feedback) back. so i vote PS with aftermarket pulley.

rice_classic

Manual rack.

If you're struggling to turn the wheel while on track with a manual rack you probably aren't going fast enough and need to consider going faster a bit so the tires are doing a bit a sliding. (stress on the word "bit")

Go faster, get into your 6-8% slip angle induced slide (maximum cornering grip level) and the wheel is very easy to turn, always.

This is one of those things that can be answered with one of my favorite phrases: "just go faster"

MBellRacing

Here's the thing...

Cars I've driven that have had power steering retained / added:












Cars I've driven that haven't had power steering:






As you can see, all the pro cars have power steering. Things like the DP car and the ALMS GT2 have actually had it ADDED to aid in driving. That's because the modern idea is that, as was mentioned previously, you should be driving with your finger tips. It shouldn't take much muscle at all (if you've got them or not) to turn the wheel. The more you use your forearm muscles, the less receptive your hands are to subtle movements in the wheel. This is the true way to feel what the car is telling you.

You'll also notice that all the cars in the power steering section are endurance cars made to run at least 3 hours (24 hours for a few of them). Can you imagine trying to saw away at a manual rack with 300-width front tires for three or four 3-hour stints?! Now I know someone is going to say that "my car is only an HPDE car and it's only out for 20 minutes at a time". Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. Everything to F1 has power steering on it for a reason.

P.S.
I don't post this to boast. I had this discussion on another forum and a number of people called me out on sources, including people doubting the fact that an F1 car has P/S. The F1, like the DP above, has ADJUSTABLE power steering so that the driver can balance the steering effort with his fatigue throughout the race. Boom.

STN_Pat

Very nice post.
Thanks.