RR98ITR

I'll just get it started now...

Scott, who will have his eyes open and his brain turned on...which is no guarantee of success...

solo-x

Needs more front wing...

RR98ITR

Not necessarily. It could need more droop travel. Or perhaps the team has made the mistake of using sway bars which as we all know lift the inside wheel, in this case obviously completely off the ground - it must be a terrifying instant for the driver captured in this photograph.

Scott, who finally understands drag racing...they have the maximum lateral grip of all because they transfer so little weight laterally..."I get it! I finally get it!"

MBellRacing

...pretty much every production car I've driven does it. Must be doing something right-- can't all be wrong!

RR98ITR

Matt - this is a very serious thread, so I have to let you know that pics involving curbs or with the slightest ambiguity as to the cause of the lifting (anything besides setup) are not helpful and might confuse unknowing denizens.

Scott, who misses his favorite curb, deleted in improvements to his home track...I'm pretty sure I used to lift all four...

Billy Elliot

Mysel and my old GTI rally car.

EK4civichatch

I watched one particular hairpin at Homestead Race for the Grandam ST cars and every single fwd car lifted the inside rear at the apex, but only momentarily. It wasn't a lowrider 3 wheel motion in reverse through the whole corner.

RR98ITR

This was years ago though right? Back in the dark ages of setup?

Scott, who feels so strongly that it is so important to get information that is so accurate that his thoughts will be so impregnable that no contrary evidence, if it even existed, which is so unbelieveable, would be so inadmissable, that I could rest easy thinking that I was so reasonable...

EK4civichatch

This season actually...

RR98ITR

Look, I might be inclined to believe that you think you saw this happening. But there was probably a bump, or a thermal inversion, or some other more plausible explanation.

Scott, who is forced by science to throw out extraneous or outrageous data that can screw up an otherwise incontestible hypothesis...

FlewByU352

I need to get my GoPro hooked up. I've picked the inside rear tire up a few times. Such an odd feeling lol

SMHero

At VIR over the weekend nearly every FWD ST car would lift the inside rear at the Apex in the Hogpen. Same as last year.

MBellRacing

I believe my second photo should show that there is nothing there to cause the wheel to hop. That is right at the transition from brakes to full side load, on a concrete patch, right at the apex. There is little to no elevation change there until pretty far after the apex.

descartesfool

Luckily I am off to Mosport this very weekend to watch a double header of the World Challenge races. I am hoping to see a FWD car with as much grunt as that Mustang and Camaro that it can actually lift its front wheel. Who cares about those rear wheels anyway, just along for the ride. maybe they have a new setup for 2011 to chase those V8's. They race on Saturday, and they race on Sunday. Mustangs and TSX's in the same class. Whoodda thunk it. I will attempt to garner some exidence.

dirty19

iTrader: (1)

Just my .02.

A car is pretty much built at a constant. It does have give to twist, and bend but not much.

Tracks on the other hand have elevation changes, and are far from perfect, plus the earth does shift.
Soooo my theory is that you will always have one wheel in the air someplace on track.

Maybe if cars had a tank suspension they would be in constant contact with the track?

MBellRacing

Oh look! A couple Rolex GT cars lifting their front tires (or close enough) on T3 (completely flat) at Daytona.







Yes they are Porsches, yes they are probably pretty hard on the power there, but both of those cars were VERY fast last year during the 24H. The thing is, they don't care much about their inside front tires since they are accelerating so hard. If they softened up the front bar (they are adjustable on the GT cars) then he might see some oversteer as the acceleration force would break the rear tires free while the fronts are nice and planted.

The opposite is true for this little Mazdaspeed 3 at Miller last year.



There is a slight uphill section in this corner, but if you think that caused the wheel to lift, you're really going down the wrong path. They tighten up the rear bar to free the car up into the corner under braking. Once they get back to power, all four wheels are relatively well planted and they power off. I don't see what's so wrong. There are very few production cars that do NOT lift a wheel occasionally.

This is an example (that I just found... heeeheee). This is me in the Dallara DP car on the same T3 at Daytona during the 24H. You can see how panted a prototype (or similar) car can be when it doesn't encounter the issues that a production car needs to surpass. If I recall, we had both bars nearly full stiff but quite soft springs and nearly no aero.




All photos are courtesy of Motorsport.com.

solo-x

Matt, I think you're taking Scott's "seriousness" too, um, seriously.

MBellRacing

I type everything with smirk... You must understand that I am rarely serious...

I have had this argument with people in the past and have actually been on the other side of the fence myself. Once you let an engineer try to explain it and eventually just install a freewheel setup to a car you're driving, it all starts to make sense. It is an odd feeling when a RWD car pops its front wheel up (even more odd when it puts it back down), but the strangest part is the complete lack of handling change with it up or down. It's either got grip or it doesn't. The ends justify the means. If you're in a FWD car and you can't get it to rotate under braking at the last 1/3 of turn-in, keep moving the setup in the direction that helps. If it starts doing the doggie potty due to these changes, who cares? Are you going faster? Good. Job done.

EK4civichatch

ROFL Scott is trolling Matt hard

RR98ITR

All of these pics of various cars lifting prove Nothing. All Claude has to do is post one pic of a Realtime TSX Not lifting and his argument is won. And Realtime cars, being the most highly developed and exemplary front wheel drive racing cars on the planet, are surely not to be seen let alone caught in digits leaving any daylight between their inside rears and the racing surface unaided by curbing or whatnot.

Nate - this is serious business indeed. I couldn't be more serious. It can't be more serious. Someday the child Arnold Schwarzenegger had with his household servant will look back and remark about this very thread: "Now THAT was some serious business!"

Scott, who has been spending time in his engine bay - the very spot where the B18C5 normally lies in repose awaiting its next opportunity to humble it's prey - it's intimidating!

MBellRacing

......I should have known......

dirty19

iTrader: (1)

Im going to go see the realtime car and see if i can capture a wheel off the ground.
If I cant then they truely are the best motorsports teams in the world for solving the issue.
But im betting i get a wheel off the ground and we should put this to rest.

Paul who thinks this horse has been beaten to death also thinks no matter what the car or track there will always be a wheel off the ground!
It's one of those things where it just happens, and there is no way to stop it.
Further more its almost like asking "how high is up"?

Erik95LS

Not a very good or hard-fought lap and a half of Autobahn, but thought it may help some of you at least visualize whats going on under there with the DC platform. http://youtu.be/xNlQTAq0cS0?hd=1

The only corner there where I've seen much of anyone lifting in a fwd honda (not induced by curbs or without an extremely rear roll-stiff setup) is turn 1 on full course, the big 180 deg sweeper. Take from this what you will be it everything or nothing.

solo-x

The curse of a production based econobox turned "race car". It's almost like the designers had other priorities then getting the cg low and roll centers ideally located....

RR98ITR

This is how messed up I am: "In car video doesn't hardly get any better than This!"

Scott, who loved the soundtrack too...