uncleben

I've got a bit of a dilemma... I've been trying to make the decision for how to prep my 90 Civic Si for next year. I've been wanting to get into wheel-2-wheel racing and though I feel I really only have one route right now, I have a couple ways to go about it. The SCCA is my first choice for competition of course. The closest track to me is in Oklahoma, Hallett, and though they are an SCCA track for the NE-Okla region- it would probably be the only SCCA track I would feasibly be able to go to during a season without a bit of traveling. Fortunately Hallett happens to have it's own race series, exclusively to their own track - it's like 7-8 race weekends over the year. It would be my second choice. Basically a run what you brung type of series with little red tape. It doesn't take nearly as much to get your license like it would to race ITA in SCCA.

This is where my decision comes. I've always wanted to do a hatch/swap, and I've got a swap pretty much all lined up. I've been told that I could race in the local series with the swap, and they would mostly likely leave me in the class I would be in stock (which is loosely based on SCCA ITA)... if I was faster then everyone in the class by a significant amount for a couple years in a row, they might bump me up, but it's so mixed, that it's unlikely. Point being it's pretty much a laid-back series so that would be permitted. My only worry is that if I take the car onto further competition in the future, with SCCA or NASA, I'm screwed class-wise, not to mention if I do any autocrossing with it. My only hope would be that Honda Challenge would eventually get spread to the mid-west and then I'd have an H1 car.

I've been told by several familiar with the local race series (it's called COMMA by the way) that my Civic, tuned, modded, gutted, with some good suspension, would actually be fairly competitive. At least that way I would know it would be easier to fit ITA regulations for SCCA later down the road if I decided to pursue that. But there's that part of me that always thought it would be fun to do a swap...

so anyway - sorry for the long post - what do you guys think?

Catch 22

Don't do the swap.

And don't W2W race with any group that it's "easy" to get a license with and kind of makes up the rules as they go.

Prep it for ITA.

uncleben

After reading their rule-book I was asking myself how getting a license for the series would be any easier then an SCCA license. Then after talking to several "regulars" they made it sound like the rule-book was kind of "loose"- and to quote their rule-book I can see how some of their vocabulary contridicts some of the secions on requirements for license:

"...Butler realized the need for a less expensive and less organizationally complex road racing club that could operate from the Hallett Circuit. He created the Competition Motorsports Association (COMMA) in 1985 to fill that need. COMMA has seen steady growth over the years and now is a regular feature on the local and regional sports car road racing event calendar in the central USA..."

then

"...Stephens is COMMA's ONLY officer, i.e., there are no directors, no committees - just Mike. It's simple and it works! Remember the goal - max track time at a minimum expense in a simpler, friendly, family-oriented atmosphere..."

Red-neck racing at it's finest? They seem like top-notch people of course... hmmm.




[Modified by uncleben, 10:03 AM 10/31/2002]

JeffS

Don't do the swap. Prepare the car, and yourself, to SCCA specs, minus an engine rebuild. Run both series and see what you think. You can always swap the engine later, but you'd never take it out once it was done.

It sounds like you might not want to drive to other tracks now, but once you get into there's no telling what you might end up doing.

civicrr

Knestis

What they said. That Si is a fine choice for ITA. Don't confuse your life. Besides, you can spend what you would have on the swap for really GOOD bits (and tires) for IT.

Dangerous to limit your options.

Kirk

jc836

I must agree with Kirk and the others-DO NOT do a swap. Improved Touring is very specific about powertrains and their component parts. There is a lot of good competition out there with essentially stock engines for you to enjoy. The local series may be OK for some seat time too. I run with NASA and PDA as well as doing the SCCA thing. The CRX is set up so that it can be a fun car with all 3 groups. Remember that in IT the VIN number is the key to what you will be allowed.
Buy some really good suspension pieces and tires for the largest wheels allowed in your class (it is called the "spec line" in the GCR) in IT and have fun.

91SiKen

Warning: I am not a licensed road racer. I am just an opinionated bastard that wanted to give you a few justifications if you are of the mind to do the swap anyway. The gentleman above have given you very good advice, but people will do what they want, right? I live near Waterford Hills raceway in Michigan, and I have been looking into my options for racing there. They have their own series, 2-3 of their own classes, and a licensing program that sounds similiar to what you are working with. I am in the same boat, and already have a swap in my car. Here are the ideas that I had:

1. It would only take a weekend to go back to the stock engine, and you can sell your swap stuff easily or put it in another car.
2. You have a series right at your home track that you can compete in with the swap.
3. Race classes that allow this type of swap seem to be spreading across the country, or are in lobbying or development stages.
4. An entire B series swap, done right, costs lest than a prepped IT motor, and another longblock still costs less than a 'freshening' of an IT motor.
5. Any suspension work, cage, etc, can be made to fit the rules of IT now in case you decide to go there later.
6. It's easier and cheaper to buy a swap with an LSD than to buy an LSD and have it installed in your D series transmission.
7. Convention sucks.
8. B series hatchies own.

uncleben

Thanks guys- I see the point you are making. I could always do a swap later if I am so inclined to do so...

What all would be legal with my D16 engine for ITA? Does someone have a guide or some tips?


(woah!! 1,000th post!!)

uncleben

oh you just had to do this to me! haha..

true, true

exactly...

hmmmm, hadn't thought of that

yes

hadn't thought of that either

YES!

...sigh... okay now I'm back to leaning towards the swap. the cost of the prepped d16 engine being the biggest factor now, because I won't really save anything not going swap if I have to spend a lot of money making the D go fast.

haha... crap, this sucks!! Anyone else have some good advice?

manveer

Depends on if he's doing an OBD-I conversion, and how he does it.

phat-S

"4. An entire B series swap, done right, costs lest than a prepped IT motor, and another longblock still costs less than a 'freshening' of an IT motor."

Ok, I don't know I buy this. There are plenty of folks that have run junkyard motors and won races with them. Would it be the best thing year after year? Nah, of-course not but its a cheap solution. An freshening an IT motor costs more than a B-series longblock? What does a longblock B16/B18 cost these days (a buddy of mine that runs in SPU was looking at a $6K B-series motor replacement a month ago - IIRC, the cheap "built" ones were $4K).

Reid

Don't do the swap.

Keep things as simple as you can and find a class you can race in that requires the least modification of the car (aside from safety equipment). Basically you're looking at ITA.

johng

What he said.
If you're serious, save the B-Block for your street car and race the cheap motor. It's faster than you think, and you're only limiting yourself with a transplant.

Catch 22

So a bunch of racers tell you not to do it and one non-racer tells you to do it.

If you still want to do the swap, the reality is that you were going to do it before you asked the question, regardless of the answer.
So, ask yourself why you asked in the first place. The answer to what you should do lies somewhere in there... Grasshopper

Tyson

well put. ask why you are asking others what to do with your car.

uncleben

90% of the honda-tech posts I read every day involve "what should I do about..."

Uh, it's part of human nature - asking others for their opinion. It's not that I am going to do what others tell me, it's that I am seeking advice. I am looking for opinions that are possibly based on perspectives that I may not have realized yet. Discussion provokes more questions and answers, therefore helping me make an educated decision.

Now, to those with helpful comments... thanks, I am more and more leaning towards running the car with it's existing engine. Also a lengthy discussion with one of the series long-running participants brought up a lot of other interesting points that I had not thought of tonight. I am looking forward to preparing the Si as is (for the most part) and learning what the car can do. If down the road I decide that my budget and other considerations dictate that I stay with the local series only, then I might consider a swap for more power. But for now I'm thinking it's smart that I stick with the current setup.

Now where do I find some rules for ITA allowed modifications?

91SiKen

That was assuming stock(ish) B vs. worked D. Obviously a built B series cost as much or more than a built D.

BTW, I never said in my post to do the swap. I just like playing devil's advocate
I have built (am building) my car for SM autocross and trackdays, not roadracing. Right now I don't have roadracing money, ya know? If I were going to road race, it wouldn't be in my current car, but in a Spec Miata, and only when I can afford to pay for a car outright, and be able to replace it too.


[Modified by 91SiKen, 2:10 PM 11/1/2002]

phat-S

Whereas the GCR is the standard refrain in responding to "what is allowed" and something you need to have to succinctly answer these questions, you also will want to consult w/ those in your area that have been running A cars for some time and seeking their advice on what modifications are worthwhile. Basically, shocks, springs, header, intake (next year must be inside engine bay), exhaust, mild headwork are all legal. My suggestion, find the best cage builder in your area and start there - a purpose built, well designed and rigid cage is probably a better investment that you'd think (aside from the safety perspective).

uncleben

can you upgrade the cam? and specifically what kind of headwork?

agreed
thanks again!

BTW: what class does an ITA Civic fall into with Honda Challenge?

phat-S

Basically from my understanding everything must be retained in the same configuration that it came stock: cams in this case must be retained, no more than a 3 angle valve grind and I'd assume all internal materials must be of the same materials/configurations. When I say find an experienced racer to answer these questions, that would be someone other than me I am on the "still learning" side of things by a rather substantial margin and I am ill equipped to answer rules questions, that's where the GCR or an experienced IT person would be of great service.

In HC, an ITA Civic 1.6 L goes in H4 provided it is legal and not overprepped for SCCA IT and provided the motor has not been overbored in excess of .20 over. Edit: I believe you can (for HC) run any size rim vs. the 14x7 max. in ITA. Also, earlier ITA Civics are H5 cars.

Again, I am definitively NOT the rules guy to answer these sorts of questions although I am (w/ good intentions) attempting to answer your query.


[Modified by phat-S, 10:47 AM 11/1/2002]

Hracer

You're going to do what you want to do. It may not be the right choice (but who is the judge on that?), but it's your choice and maybe that makes it right for you. But just try to keep things in perspective.

It seems you are very eager to go out and modify/build stuff. But, the best thing to do would be to save your money on all this prep work (other than safety) and start racing more with that money. You won't believe how fast you can spend money racing, not building.

About the price of the b series vs IT motor, etc. argument. It’s pretty far fetched IMO. You really have to keep things in perspective here and on equal ground. Why would anyone compare a junkyard b series motor with a "built" IT d16 motor? Why not instead compare the costs of a B Series swap with your existing motor you have now? That's a lot more relevant. It will cost you thousands of $$$$ to do the complete swap, while it will cost you $0 to run what you have now. What’s stopping you from running what you have now? In the end, you're still racing and isn't that what you want? You don't have to pointlessly spend money on “building”. If you really want to race, then save your money for racing.

The same reasons why you would want to "build" an IT d16 motor are the same as why you would want to build a b series motor. You want to build any motor to better improve reliability and performance. I really don't see why doing a swap would not require you to also build it up to the same level as building up your current d16 to IT spec for example. That extra performance is welcome no matter where you are racing. Personally, I would take a built IT d16 motor any day over buying a junkyard B series plus the price of the swap. The fresh IT motor will way outlast the junkyard swap by far out on the track. Reliability is your best friend in racing. And when finally you do want to build you b series (possibly to fix it after it broke down??), it will cost you more than twice as much. I know the price for building a B16 vs a D16 to the same "spec" by the *same* engine builder and the B16a is very expensive. I would assume a B18c would be the same. Plus you just don’t want to ruin a perfectly good fresh IT or anything spec motor starting out. It’s a total waste of money. Build whatever you have later down the road. So if I were you, I would drop the option of you building your D16 in the first place.

So the question is not whether I want to do a swap or not. I think your question should be: Do I want to spend my money on *building/prepping* my car with fancy swaps and trick suspensions, or spend it instead on *racing* my car as much as possible by doing the least amount of modifications to it and the most amount of track time? It's your choice either way, but I think this is the real question.

uncleben

Excellent, very excellent comments Hracer - and I thank you. I think you hit home with the word "reliability"... which will be an issue with either engine once it starts getting "built" as you said. I want/need reliability for sure, and was one of my main concerns with doing a swap to begin with. My mechanic is competent and I'm not worried about that - but I don't want to be on the track and have problems with something beyond my control in either environment, swap or not. Admitedly I am not as handy under the hood as I should. And until I get a tow vehicle, the Civic will be driven to the track, so reliability should be on the top of my list. The local racer that I spoke with last night harped on the same issues you bring up - take the car out in *sound* running order, cage-equipped and with some good wheels/tires, and race. Have fun, learn the ropes, and not worry about being #1 or even #10 for a while (which will be hard to do). Then concentrate on engine/suspension/etc. Though I'll have to do *something* with the suspension as it's got 130K miles on it stock.

Thanks again for the comments (to Phat-S and all as well) and I think it's safe to say I know where I'm going with this car and I'm looking forward to March 2003

anyone have links to ITA specs for my enjoyment? (oh yeah, and what is GCR?)

Knestis

GCR is the General Class Rules from SCCA. You can order the book from them - start at http://www.scca.org but you might want to wait until the 2003 book comes out in January. Or mooch someone's old one?

Kirk