Kaan

iTrader: (3)

I’ve been doing a lot of research into improving the braking on the #civicofdoom. My current setup is 100% adequate BUT there is room for improvement in feel, modulation, and pad wear.

Maybe the “best” track big brake for a classic Honda (80s-2001ish Civic/Integra/Prelude/etc.) is the Spoon Monoblock/Twin block caliper and the Mini Rotor (280mm). You can “improve” it even more by getting some Fastbrake two piece rotors, significantly dropping weight. But this isn’t cheap at $500 for a set… the Spoon setup can save you about 22lbs with mini rotors and almost 40lbs with the two piece rotors…

Spoon Calipers are about $1250 new (sure you can get a used set, but the rebuild kit is $500, so take that into account)…Mini rotors are about $50/set… and the Fastbrake pimp setup is $500. Either way you shake it, you are at +$1300 for the set.

What if I told you… thanks to Honed Developments (no I’m not sponsored by them or affiliated with them in anyway) … that IN THEORY you can get a very similar setup for roughly half the price?!?! Do I have your attention?

Follow me as I go through the journey of discovering how well this setup actually works… 986 Porsche Boxster Base Model Calipers, Honed Developments brackets, and generic large Mini Cooper Rotors… Now lets compare the specs.

Spoon Twin Block:

Manufacturer: Nissin

Weight: 5.7 lbs. (Spoons website)

Caliper Piston Sizes: 4 pot; 42.85mm and 38.18mm pistons

Rotor Size: 280mm/11 inch

Wheel Fitment: Most 15x7 or larger… spacers required

Pros:

1. HAWT BOI blue… lightest weight JDM pimpness
   
2. Wheel fitment is awesome…
   
3. Known quality
   
4. Uses a fairly common ITR/TSX/NSX pad (in case you need to borrow pads at the track… don’t ask, people do this, and it boggles my mind)… these pads are commonly priced for race pads… not super cheap.
   

Cons:

1. Cost… used or new you pay (a $500 set might be worth it used… add a $500 rebuild kit and it saves you a couple of hundred… but anything more than that, used, is too expensive IMHO… ask yourself when is the last time you have seen $500 spoon calipers for sale?!?!?)
   
2. Cost… the hard to find rebuild kits are expensive ($500)
   
3. Twin Block construction can be more fragile over the long run…
   

Porsche 986 Boxster Base Calipers:

Manufacturer: Brembo

Weight: 6.01lbs (Pelican Parts website)

Caliper Piston Sizes: 4 pot; 40mm and 36mm (the exact size of the Spoon S2k monoblocks)

Rotor Size: 294mm/11.5 inch

Wheel Fitment: Some 15x7s most 15x8s or larger… see the website for details… if this kicks off, I’ll make a real list.

Pros:

1. Cost… for now… they are going up in price as this caliper has been fit to basically all German cars and now Hondas.
   
2. Cost… on rockauto I can get all the premium rebuild parts for under $100… and I’m talking all… clips, seals, boots, etc.
   
3. Monoblock construction… in theory this is stiffer and more rugged than a twin block
   
4. Slightly larger rotor fitment for more brake torque… its also a 22mm thick rotor (vs the 19mm rotor for the Spoon) for more thermal mass.
   
5. Almost as light caliper to caliper… slightly more weight in the rotor setup.
   

Cons:

1. Wheel fitment kind of sucks… the only known 15 inch wheel that it fits over with no spacer is the Kosei K1 +25 (that’s E30 fitment if you are wondering)
   1. Some/most of us that are racing are already running spacers… also most of the other big brake kits (Wilwood, Stoptech, etc.) also require spacers… so for racers its likely a wash… but for track day folks, getting spacers to run right can be a pain (at least it is for me with these Mini rotors)
      
2. Cost… there are some hidden costs (spacer setup, rebuild ASAP, clean and paint/PC, etc.)… so while they are cheap, there is a little legwork/elbow grease and money associated with it. Also, the brake pads are slightly more expensive (+$20/set or so)
   

I’ve spent the last several days looking at the piston size, weight, fitment, etc. and decided to pull the trigger. I am currently on the ITR/Mini setup… a single 57mm caliper piston. Going to either the Spoon or 986 caliper will be a dramatic increase in caliper piston area… causing increased pedal travel (this is what I worry about), more force applied to pads, and increased brake torque.

Assuming I am running the same master cylinder (1 inch ITR setup on my EM1), the 986 calipers should be close to the Spoon setup (piston sizes are similar)… being that that Spoon setup was designed for the ITR/CTR/S2k and they all have a 1 inch master cylinder… I think I’ll be okay. I do worry that I might need to go to a master cylinder delete though since this will increase pedal travel… I’ll tackle that when I get to it.

What I have done to date…

1. Purchased 986 Boxster Base model FRONT calipers (Part # 986.351.422 and 986.351.421) for $304.16 shipped off eBay.
   
2. Purchased the appropriate Honed Developments brackets directly from them for $245.13 shipped.
   
3. Purchased replacement pistons seals, hardware, bleeder caps for 69.70 shipped
   

What I need to do…

1. Purchase 2x294mm 2006 Mini Cooper front rotors… $63.57 shipped on rock auto for the coated Raybestos
   

So far the GRAND TOTAL is $682.56 (your mileage may vary… and I know I need brake pads too)

Future potential upgrades include… $500 Fastbrake two piece rotors (one day when I’m not race car poor)… this might cost me more since it will likely be a “new” setup for them to build… (boohiss)


WHEEL SPECS FROM HONED:
949Racing 6UL 15×8″+36 – 5mm spacer required
949Racing 6UL 15×9″ +36 – 8mm spacer required for knuckle clearance
949Racing 6UL 15×10″ +25 – 8mm spacer required for knuckle clearance, not necessary for caliper clearance
Volk Racing TE37 15×7 +35 – 2mm spacer required
Enkei RPF1 15×8″+28 – 5mm spacer required, caliper may need to be clearanced slightly to avoid interference/debris between barrel of wheel
Kosei K1 15×7″ +25 – No spacer (this is what i am running)

Kaan

iTrader: (3)

Mock up and half install... this is basically how i'm rolling. I will likely have a custom spacer made and/or buy a set of +25 K1s to fit

Here are the specs on the wheels I run.



Here are the differences in the rotors... ITR/Mini vs. the 986/Mini JCW



I ripped off the ITR calipers (not really, they are hanging by the upper control arm)… threw the Honed Developments bracket on, tossed the caliper on, threw on the 5mm... and i prayed.




I was told +6mm would be all i needed for Kosei K1s.... maybe its because these are V2s... but even my 10mms didn't work.



Doing it garage grade style... its time to give these calipers a hair cut. i needed 1/8th of an inch or so... they will get refinished and i did hit them with some 400 grit to smooth them out



They now clear my K1s (both sets) and my rain wheels... Advanti Storms... with a +10mm spacer.

Kaan

iTrader: (3)

Back from the powder coater... and i just had to finish mocking them up... now for race season to start.




its going to "pop" behind the black wheel... #showcarlife

... i am a little sad you can't really tell they are Porsche brakes anymore

EDIT: First time out on track with this setup

I got the 986 calipers with mini JCW rotors out on track this weekend (thank Jesus). Supporting cast is a 1 inch ITR booster/MC and Raybestos ST43 pads.

My pedal rides slightly higher, which is okay... its very subtle, maybe 1/8 of an inch. Obviously I can still lock up the front brakes easily. The pedal feel is much better but isn't night and day... but much better, very useable, etc. I might spring for the booster delete kit to test at the last event of the year... maybe.

the ITR pad as more surface area than the 986, the DTC60 (that i ran on the ITR setup) has slightly less bite than the ST43s (current setup)… i'm trading large pad area, smaller rotors, less bite in the pad, and less feel for smaller pad area, slightly larger rotors, more bite in the pad, more feel.... that being said data shows i shifted my braking zone roughly 15 feet (+ or _ 3 feet because of GPS) so lets say 1 car length closer.

dirty19

iTrader: (1)

Are talking to yourself?

Colin

iTrader: (1)

I'd seen Honed post pics of these Porsche calipers but never got the details behind it so thanks for sharing. The main part that would suck for me is wheel fitment as I definitely would not want to run spacers on my setup, my offset is already too low for my liking. Any idea what wheels have been tried with this setup so far? I feel like my TE37 SL's have tons of room under them so maybe there's a chance they'd fit

Kaan

iTrader: (3)

i'm sharing what my experience is going to be and the research I've done for this setup on a honda... because in my research the only folks sharing are the R34 VW kids...

here is what Honed has so far...

1. 949Racing 6UL 15×8″+36 – 5mm spacer required
2. 949Racing 6UL 15×9″ +36 – 8mm spacer required for knuckle clearance
3. 949Racing 6UL 15×10″ +25 – 8mm spacer required for knuckle clearance, not necessary for caliper clearance
4. Volk Racing TE37 15×7 +35 – 2mm spacer required
5. Enkei RPF1 15×8″+28 – 5mm spacer required, caliper may need to be clearanced slightly to avoid interference/debris between barrel of wheel
6. Kosei K1 15×7″ +25 – No spacer

They don't have the fitment kit ready yet... which i was hoping for the file so i could print it out and test it on my Kosei K1 15x7 +38... they are saying i'll need a 5-6mm spacer for that wheel.

Dublocivic

This will be a great upgrade per dollar value for folks wanting more than the typical ITR upgrade. Cant wait to see how it works out man!

Kaan

iTrader: (3)

I hope this is true... since there is nothing outside of the Honed webpage on this setup... im hoping to shed some light and have a positive experience. Honed has some great products on paper, some i'm not sold on (like the splitter mounts... attaching through the bottom... i would destroy the bolts for sure)… some of their math seems shaky to me (their brake booster delete math doesn't pass on first glance... but i'll read it again). But since this all compares to the Spoon calipers i'm a little less worried.

Once i work out the car a little i'll make the switch... likely in June.

I have at least 2 competitors on the on the spoon setup, 3 on the stoptech setup, and 1 person on the Wilwood Dyno Pro 4 pots... and i have a lot of time on the ITR/Mini (along with other folks running it). I already brake well in comparison to the guys around me, though the data doesn't say so the video does... so we will find out how good this setup really is.

dirty19

iTrader: (1)

ahhhhh ok i see... subscribed!

iwannarace

aw614

I am curious about the wheel fittment. The AP Racing/ASR and the Rcrew/ICB kit also has fittment issues also even with the 15x8 TE37 in the 3x offset.
https://www.typerclub.org/forums/vie...91&hilit=rcrew

The Spoon calipers clear my 15x7 +42 SSR Type C's with a 4mm spacer and mini cooper rotors...

hispanic panic

Pics of the spoon & porche calipers?? It all comes down to that bridge. If there's a bolt across it, its gonna be rock solid. If not...... then it'll depend on how bad those calipers get heat cycled over time. And you'll still get taper and caliper flex. Unless the designs just pack on material (weight). I also am not sure how these 998 calipers compare against a wilwood dpha. Since those are 500 for the set too.

Kaan

iTrader: (3)

my 986 calipers aren't in and i'm too race car poor to own Spoons (i'll steal some off the internet). the Spoons do have a bridge... just remember, while racing and doing track days, these calipers will see extreme heat while having to manage a 40-80 psi internal pressure. I haven't heard of any Spoon caliper failures, but most race/track folks aren't rocking them... BUT i have read several threads where the original stoptech kits for Hondas (twin block) are starting to crack and fail (single bolt bridge vs. the spoon two bolt). The original kits came out about 8-10 years ago, so that's not a bad life span... but people were paying +$2.5k for them back in the day... i'm sure they are happy to see the new kits at $1500...






DPHAs are "okay." They are basically a super NSX caliper. They are 4 pot instead of 2, work with the stock system, and there is no rotor change. DPHAs are also two piece without a bridge if you care. Because of the rotor size, you can fit them under 15 inch wheel pretty easily, but i dont think there is a performance gain in general since you still working on the 262mm rotor.

IMHO the DPHAs are a step ahead of the ITR/Mini but cant be compared to the Spoon/Porsche/Stoptech/Wilwood setups on larger rotors (what are known as the STL kits from Fastbrakes… and they are all twin block).

Just so you know...
Fastbrakes Integra 300mm STL kit: $1250.00
300mm 2 piece rotor, Wilwood 4 piston DynaPro calipers, and DTC60 pads. (4 bolts, no bridge)

Fastbrakes Integra 300mm STL StopTech Caliper Kit: $1295.00 (two piece rotor bumps you to $1545)
300mm 1 piece rotor, STR42 4 piston calipers, DTC60 pads (4 bolts plus a single bolt bridge)

The thing the Spoon and Porsche calipers do that the wildwood, alcon, stoptech, and AP kits aren't doing... they are using two different piston sizes to combat pad wear.

Dublocivic

Interesting.. I do see a difference from one side of the pad to the other in thickness with my Wilwood kit. So that is the reason for piston staggering?

I also see that they have released the ST line with bigger pistons and the better GT-37 iron rotors. Twin 41.148mm vice 35.05mm pistons. That's kinda funny.. any idea how long that kit has been out? It wasn't available when I bought mine and essentially ended up with the same kit in a 12.19 GT-37 rotor with the BP-30 pads but the smaller 35mm pistons. Wilwood is sniping my IG posts (free test mule I guess). Now you have me wanting the bigger 41mm pistons.

Kaan

iTrader: (3)

i think you have enough brake on the car... working with pads, getting to the sticker tire, etc are all in your future. unless your pedal is too high for you, i wouldn't mess with the piston size.

the STL kit is maybe 2 years old now... i know the wilwoods went through several iterations from fastbrakes… some STL folks in the south east were testing them if i remember right.

Dublocivic

Gotchya, yeah the Wilwood rep had talked to me at one of the VIR events and asked what I was using etc. I wish these were an option when I bought my kit. Would have saved some extra coin. Until the new tire is on, you are right.. it has enough it should handle more tire up to a point. They actually have the ST "Race Kit" on the Wilwood site now.

Kaan

iTrader: (3)

i'm not rich like you... i'm trying to get the best brakes i can on a slim budget... getting a +2 piston system at close to the 300mm rotor for $700 is pretty exciting... assuming it works well. Also all my outreach to various brake companies fell on deaf ears... but i need improved feel over a basically stock ITR setup.

I need to see what the kit 300mm rings are specced to for 2 piece... i cant find a way to piece together a 2 piece rotor off the wildwood website.

Dublocivic

Bah..the Wilwood kit wasn't much more than 700. Thing is though this setup you are putting together has more piston area so it should handle a good amount of tire. What range of rotor size can the 998 calipers use? The reason I ask is because eventually when you go to a 2 piece, try and get the gt-37 spec iron Wilwood rotors. I have 2 sets of pads (I think 28 sessions) through my current set and they are still in great shape with plenty of thickness.. no cracks, warping, still perfect. The gt-37 11.75 rotors PNs are 160-12286/160-12285 and hat PN is 170-14943 for the EM. This should eliminate the need for centering rings for the mini rotors. Just a thought.

Kaan

iTrader: (3)

$700 for your setup? send me a link...

Currently "i think" (because i don't have everything in hand yet... calipers come in tonight) that a 11.75 rotor is too big for the honed/986 setup... it already has fitment issues, so moving the caliper up 4-6mm (if it needs to) might create more issues with the wheel...

If i base it strictly off of the 986/Mini specs... I need the mini hat with .83 offset (the EM1/Integra/etc is .9)… "I think" that's because they are slamming the 22mm thick rotor in there... i don't know "if" that will influence the 20.5mm rotor that you posted...

Maybe once the season kicks off and the car is running right i'll order some hats and rotors and see what happens. i could just see if one of the guys has a backup rotor setup and try to see how it fits (wilwood and stoptech).

hispanic panic

I know this is beyond the budget, but i thought about the wilwood 6 piston kit (to address the lack of a bridge bolt on their 4 piston designs). Not bad at 900 for the kit https://www.wilwood.com/brakekits/Br...emno=140-10735

Of course AP kit has that bridge bolt. It also has 32mm thick rotors with twice the curved vanes that wilwood has in their best rotors in 12.2 in size. No doubt you'd get the best pad life out of this kit. Oh, and the pistons are absolutely staggered. 38.1 & 41.3 mm pistons. The more i research, the more i lean into the AP kit. But 2300 is a tough pill to swallow. But they are the world leaders in braking..... all the research i'm doing is to see if i can find something that's 90% as good for half the price. Not sure if that's possible yet https://www.asrparts.com/products/asr-big-brake-kit

BUT!!!! Those spoons are hawt. And i don't mean from a purely aesthetic point, TWO bridge bolts has to be better than ONE! Perhaps (caliper wise) it's just as good as the ap kit?? No doubt Nissin can manufacture things to last. The question is if it's as effective from a performance standpoint as the AP calipers. I didn't know these existed, i'll have to look into them!

hispanic panic

https://www.brakes-shop.com/brakeped...piece-calipers

According to this really great article, it seems to reinforce that the spoon kit may be just as good as the AP kit, provided anti-kockback springs and stainless pistons are used. Also not sure on how those dust boots can handle the heat of racing on the spoons.

1 issue with the spoons are the rotors. I don't think there are any options for 2pc rotors.

Kaan

iTrader: (3)

i'm pretty sure I've seen 2 piece rotors and spoons... under 15 inch wheels (TE37s).... he races in my region in Honda Challenge H1. He pointed out to me that the spoon setup will still be better because its a direct bolt on... all the other kits have an adaptor (986, AP, alcon, wilwood, etc) and that induces flex into the setup. he prefers the spoons to anything out there... and his +15 years of racing is hard to argue with.

i race in a class with rules... i'm required to use 15x7 wheels. so the 6 piston wilwoods and AP setup are tough to fit in those rules... i'm just trying to upgrade from single piston ITRs to something better.

hispanic panic

Been trying to find something 2pc that would fit those spoon calipers..... can't find anything. Also, i don't understand how a caliper adapter induces flex? Perhaps his preference for non-adapter calipers stems from using calipers that don't have a bridge bolt design??? I mean, Spoon calipers are aluminum.... adapters are aluminum... what am i missing?

Kaan

iTrader: (3)

i think it has everything to do with raising the height off the hub by Xmm. instead of being directly bolted to the hub, the spacer will introduce flex. its a very common complaint with Wilwoods

Dilbones

so we're getting porsche mono blocks and sacrificing scrub radius?