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UPDATE: now building for TT5 since NASA sunsetted the TT-letter classing.
Hey all, I'm trying to plan out a my build for NASA's Time Trial series. Looking at how points are assigned to different mods, I've been going back and forth trying to figure out which combination of points-spent/mods would lead to the fastest car, independent of driver ability of course (we'll assume that's a constant here). So basically, how do we optimize for the fastest car starting with what's already done to the car. Somethings can be undone, for example, in the future I can switch to narrower tires to get points back, or to r-comps which would cost more points, or I could switch to stock control arms to get points back and deal with the stock camber limits.
The car is a 96 GSR with ~250k miles. The entire drivetrain is still OE (exhaust too), sans a cheap $25 ebay intake I added literally so I could hear the engine better over the wind and tire noise, and OTHER peoples' exhaust, on track. The car in stock form falls into the TTE class, and from there I have 19 points to spend before being pushed into the faster TTD class. As far as weight, the base weight is around 2667lbs, and I intend to keep it around there (it's probably much heavier as it sits today). Because of the higher weight, I don't think I will hit the max hp<>lb ratio that would bump me up a class with any of the below mods. Here's where the points have gone so far,
245 tires +1
Hankook Rs-4 (200 UTQG)+2
Increase compression >.5<1 +3 (JDM B18C GSR)
Progress cs2 shocks +3 (I've got Koni Race that are going on soon)
Changed springs +2
Camber adjustable control arms +4
**I did not count the ebay intake because I doubt it adds any power and I would go back to stock for actual tt days.
I have 4 points to spend current, and I have 8 points to spend if I use stock control arms.
Here are some of the ways I could spend points,
R-comps (40 UTQG) +2
Header/cat/exhaust mods +5
Exhaust/cat only + 3
ECU Tune +3
Cold Air Intake +1 (allows for hood/fascia/fender vents/inlets/outlets too)
LSD +3
Rear only camber adj. LCA (-3)
Spherical bushings +3
Air Dam +3 (can be splitter-esque as long as it doesn’t protrude past the bumper)
Cutting rear bumper +1
Sonoma Raceway is my home track. My PB in this car is 2:00.xx. That's mid-pack in the TTE group now, but the track record is held by a Miata and is around 1:53.xx I believe. I think the car as it sits has a 1:57-1:58 in it with more practice. So, what would make the fastest car?
Last edited by iwannarace; 10-08-2019 at 07:27 PM.
Reason: update
I believe that TTE is going away per nasaforums.com ? View topic - Final Season of TTD, TTE, TTF--2018!, so as TTC is supposed to be between TT4 and TT5, I believe that I've read that TTE will go to TT6, so keep an eye on the Time Trials Nasa forum for any updates/changes.
As far as parts are concerned, I think that the R comps are good plus the LSD. As far as the splitter is concerned, if you could do both splitter and a good effective rear wing, then they will balance each other, but not sure about going with just a splitter but not a rear wing. I'm not sure how many points you'll have to spend, or how the new rules will be setup either. - Jim
I believe that TTE is going away per nasaforums.com ? View topic - Final Season of TTD, TTE, TTF--2018!, so as TTC is supposed to be between TT4 and TT5, I believe that I've read that TTE will go to TT6, so keep an eye on the Time Trials Nasa forum for any updates/changes.
As far as parts are concerned, I think that the R comps are good plus the LSD. As far as the splitter is concerned, if you could do both splitter and a good effective rear wing, then they will balance each other, but not sure about going with just a splitter but not a rear wing. I'm not sure how many points you'll have to spend, or how the new rules will be setup either. - Jim
WOW, and that was posted yesterday! Welp, good thing I didn't rush into this I guess. This thread is basically moot now. Exited to see the new rules. Thanks for sharing!
Probably moot given classing changes, but here's a build thread a guy did on a DA RS Integra for TTE. I haven't read it in awhile but I think he had some trial and error regarding points spending.
IMHO you always want to take the hit for 205-225 wide Hoosiers and work backwards. do not put yourself at a tire disadvantage in a double wishbone fwd...
in most of the classes we get royally boned for having a arms right from the start. i race in NASA H2 with a gsr motor which is capped by the rules at 175whp and 2400lbs for around a 14:1 power to weight ratio (my car is 2500 pounds at he moment), car is supposed to cross over to ST5/TT5 in theory since it is also 14:1 power to weight...but there is a 0.7 point hit for having "upper a arms" which would make me have to add A LOT of weight
I'll add some things I've learned from the last 10 seasons of w2w/TT in NASA in different cars. If nothing else get the best tires you can afford points for, Hoosier Hoosier Hoosier. Spend points wisely, for example I'm not bothering with any aftermarket suspension A-arms on the integra because they aren't worth the points, my camber is about where I need it and poly bushings don't cost me anything. Aero is probably the last thing you should do points wise.
IMHO you always want to take the hit for 205-225 wide Hoosiers and work backwards. do not put yourself at a tire disadvantage in a double wishbone fwd...
This makes sense and was part of a longer term objective, but I'm not ready for slicks yet. I still have a lot to learn on these 200 tread tires, but I'll try to keep a budget for slicks in reach for the future.
how much is a lightweight flywheel in terms of points? id do a full exhaust system. im running a stock exhaust on my car and i can tell it is corking it up a bit.
I think it's free points, and I might do that next time I crack open the trans. The car has enough umph for now and Sonoma doesn't have a real straight away, so as much as I'd love to hear the car more, I think I want to prioritize chassis balance and handling.
but there is a 0.7 point hit for having "upper a arms" which would make me have to add A LOT of weight
Do you mean aftermarket A-arms, or stock? I didn't see that in the TT classification sheet.
I'd really like to see these new rules... I need to get an actual weight on this too so i can see if I can afford to pull the A/C and PS, but it is nice gridding with the A/C on before heading out on track.
in most of the classes we get royally boned for having a arms right from the start. i race in NASA H2 with a gsr motor which is capped by the rules at 175whp and 2400lbs for around a 14:1 power to weight ratio (my car is 2500 pounds at he moment), car is supposed to cross over to ST5/TT5 in theory since it is also 14:1 power to weight...but there is a 0.7 point hit for having "upper a arms" which would make me have to add A LOT of weight
unfortunately the flaws in TT shine when you have a fully built fwd race car... especially an H2 car. minus the rear wing, my car is ready for H2 at next years comp school... but specing it in the old system (and I fear in the new system) would have me in TTB in the old system. I think that is closer to TT4 or maybe 3 in the new system. I have not idea how some of the H2 guys are running around with TTC on their car unless they are getting a dyno reclass lower than the stock car came with... and they aren't adding weight
TT is really a spend your points wisely game... not a bring your fully built car to cross over for more possible contingency game.
Do you mean aftermarket A-arms, or stock? I didn't see that in the TT classification sheet.
I'd really like to see these new rules... I need to get an actual weight on this too so i can see if I can afford to pull the A/C and PS, but it is nice gridding with the A/C on before heading out on track.
Stock. Classes that take a lot of different cars and allow for engine swaps will handicap based on fundamental elements of the car, so there's a weight modifier for Double Wishbone vs Strut suspension, RWD vs FWD, etc. So a 2000 Honda Civic with DWB will have to weigh more at the same power level as a 2001 Civic with a Strut suspension, and a Miata will have to weigh more than both at the same power. In theory it should be pretty fair and might create over and underdogs at different tracks, reality can be a bit different.
What about spherical bearings? The cost to replace literally all bushings with bearings vs. hardened rubber would cost 4-5x the amount. Are they worth it? how much time would that get you at curvy 2.5 mile track like Sonoma? Half a second? Anyone have experience running rubber bushings in a field of cars with bearings? How far behind were you?
IMHO don't spherical a street driven car. BUT I'd still do at least the rear trailing arms and the front compliance bushings. they help keep the car predictable and turn in "easy."
I went with PCI stuff due to the cost vs. the kingpin stuff. for a track only car... why bust in hard rubber bushings this year to bust in sphericals later?
IMHO don't spherical a street driven car. for a track only car... why bust in hard rubber bushings this year to bust in sphericals later?
The car is street legal, but in the last two years, it has more track miles than street. Why? I guess I'm asking for a cost/bene analysis. Sure, adding bearings would be optimal, but what am I losing (how much time) by sticking with hard rubber. Does that make sense? Sure, most racers run bearings, but i'd be great to know how much faster those cars are than cars running rubber. The frugal part of me is asking if it's really worth the extra cash.
IMHO you need the compliance bushing up front and the rear trailing arm. it increases a consistent feel out of the rear with the trailing arms and good steering feel up front.
these are completely worth it and will increase your ability to ride the edge of traction.
IMHO you need the compliance bushing up front and the rear trailing arm. it increases a consistent feel out of the rear with the trailing arms and good steering feel up front. These are completely worth it and will increase your ability to ride the edge of traction.
On my car (2000 Civic hatch), my stock front rubber compliance bushings had a large washer on just one side like is shown at https://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com...ront-lower-arm while a 2000 Integra had the large washers on both sides of the compliance bushings like is shown at https://www.acuraoemparts.com/auto-p...lower-arm-scat. I ended up replacing the stock rubber compliance bushings to Hardrace hardened rubber bushings, and got some large metal compliance washers from a wrecking yard and drilled them to fit in front of the compliance bushing. With this setup (Hardrace hardened rubber compliance bushings and the additional large metal washer in front of the bushing), the car felt much better and stable like thru the long high speed turn 9 at Sonoma, although there were basically no free threads after the nut on the control arm due to the thx of the extra washer. Your Integra should already have the large washers around the compliance bushing, but check to make sure they are there, and if you're not going to go to sphericals, then maybe try the Hardrace hardened rubber compliance bushings as they seem quite a bit stiffer than the soft stock compliance bushings. On my car (2000 H2 Civic hatch), I eventually switched to sphericals for the front compliance bushing (made by Andrei Hartanto as Kingpin supplies for spherical compliance bushings for the DC2/EG but not for the EK), but looking back, the Hardrace hardened rubber with the washer in front of the bushing seemed to really work well on my car.
PS - my car had the PCI rear trailing arm sphericals when I bought it, but came with the stock EK front arms and soft rubber compliance bushings. - Jim
my EK has a DC/EG subframe and manual steering rack... saves you about 40lbs of weight and lets you use all the DC/EG parts up front except the upper control arms.
How are spherical compliance/trailing arm bearings on a street driven car? I'm at that point where I need to do those and haven't decided which direction to go yet, everything else is going to be fresh OEM or Hardrace. It won't be a daily but will definitely see some decent street miles driving to events and such.
so that's a good question, I don't drive this car on the street often, but is it tow-dollied to events. Would the highway miles on the rear suspension actually wear the rta bearings down quickly? Or, would they endure no problem?
my PCI rear trailing arms are the first gen non rebuildable... and they have been on 3 cars with very little play. they probably have 40k miles on them total...I think you'll be fine for wear on the back of a dolly.
This is good insight, thanks for sharing. I'm more motivated to spend the few hundred bucks for the rta and compliance bearings now, but I sort of want to wait until the new class rules are released so I don't spend too many points. Guess I'll be on standby till then.
unfortunately the flaws in TT shine when you have a fully built fwd race car... especially an H2 car.
yeah your right/i know. i wanted to occasionally supersize but i dont think its worth it now. they created the st*/tt* match classes for this exact issue, but an h2 car falls just barely outside tt5 and is totally outclassed in tt4....oh well i guess
sphericals are well worth it on a race car, front compliance bushing was the best money i spent (I run kingpin stuff). spherical upper shock mounts made a huge difference too.
Can someone who is good with NASA rules help spell this out for me? I'm reading through the provisional ST6 rules... Does the below reference crank HP, or would it apply to WHP?
"ST6 models must have 168 (one-hundred sixty-eight) or less factory rated engine horsepower and an engine displacement less than 2.5L (unless specifically approved by the National ST Director). (Note: BMW 325 E30 models are specifically eligible, and the 2006+ Mazda MX-5 is specifically not eligible)."
If it's crank, this pretty much means the GSR is an ST5 car, right?
Does anyone know how much camber you get on stock F/R control arms when you lower the car 1"-2"?
I'd like to go back to stock control arms so I can get points back in the TT5 rules, and use them for less weight or more POOWWAAHHH, but I want to make sure I'd have enough camber.
07-29-2018, 08:22 AM
NASA TTE Build Turned Rogue
