descartesfool

But why did you stiffen the front with a bigger bar if you needed more rotation? That will just give you more understeer. You stiffened the wrong end.

STN_Pat

Because I understood, correct me if i'm wrong, from this topic and from solox's input that I didn't have enough front roll resistance in comparison to the rear, contributing to the lack of rotation I was dealing with...maybe in part due to a lot of rear inside lift.

Also, every Civic I tested the day I hated my car rotation-wise were front-biaised.

I've been with my actual set-up for 2 years now, and i've been doing the rear stiff thing for many years. I guess my driving matures and I need to try new things with the car ? Am I after something else...I do not want to go with the right-wheel-drives...yet.

I understand how to aim for more rotation, but on paper, my actual set-up (see post 1) should be rotating OK. I tought i was understanding solox's right. I actually thought I could get more rotation out of more front roll resistance, no matter how ackward this sounds, I think I understand what i've been told about more front roll resistance. I think adding more rear bar would only make the problem worst....that's why I gave it a go. I still can't conclude because of rain.

My next dry track day will include the removal of a front endlink...but I need a few bullets to increase rotation in case I am at the track hating my car.

BTW, i'll be @ Shannonville on july 10th, if you want to stop by, if it's near you.

beanbag

Maybe you should test out her theory of "more weight in the back means more rotation". Toss her in the trunk for your next lap and see if that makes a difference.

Natural Aspirations

I feel your pain Pat I have a similar setup on the same chassis and am quite interested to see how you make out. Wile my friends in other chassis spin out regularly i tend to push.

12k spring 22mm bar front
10k spring 24mm bar rear
NT-01's

Shitty camber angles just as you have, I believe the rear camber/toe will be my first point of attack.

On a side note that may or may not have anything to do with it, is/was your car equipped with power steering? Maybe its the difference in input response that you are feeling, I have been trying to find time to try the DC pinion mod to speed up my rack but haven't found any time as of yet.

STN_Pat

N A.,

I did reinstal my PS this season to see if I could give the car a more aggressive turn in rotation. I think it did help (didn't tried it on/off back to back...), but still.

I also am confident that I may get good results with the front bar I installed, since the steering feels lighter, and turn in feels better. I may be able to be more aggressive at turn in that way.

As for throwing weight in the rear, wouldn't increasing the rear height do exactly that ?

She's barely 100lbs wet, that would not help much.

solo-x

No, not always.

JW racing

http://www.nascar.com/video/cup/2008...car/index.html

RR98ITR

This thread is going backwards. Go back and read from the beginning. The application of relatively useful rules is necessarily subject to whatever else about a setup might be screwed up.

Scott, who learns more over time to never take anything for granted...that learning invariably the hard way...DOH!!!!!

JBrettHowell

While that is generally true, adding roll resistance to the front can lead to more optimal orientation of the tire tread to the ground resulting in more consistent and predictable front grip which will make the car understeer less. There is a happy medium.

Again, absolutes can be tricky when talking suspension setup.

descartesfool

Put a 26 mm bar in the rear, return the front bar to 22 mm, corner weight the car, and use a pyrometer to set front and rear camber and pressures. Then if it doesn't rotate better, I will eat my hat!

While obviously there are no absolutes, such as stiffening a soft car with a bigger front bar that minimizes front camber change and thus improves grip, this car is stiff enough with 550 front and 600 rear springs (800 rear springs would likely be better, assuming dampers can be set to control such spring rates) that common rules apply.

meb58

I think ride height can and will play a big role here...I don't mean to take this into another direction but roll centers and instant centers determine weight trasnfer and camber curves...what RR98ITR wrote makes sense...and perhaps defines why some of us get a different result when adding a 22mm rear bar for example.

slammed_93_hatch

I disagree, IMO he is too soft up front. another 100 to 150lbs would put him at the point of 'stiff enough'.

550lbs front springs aren't much at all.

Pat,

I wouldn't pay much attention to how the car was in the wet. Leave everything the same and get out again when you can on a dry day.

descartesfool

So you are saying leave in the newer stiffer 26 mm front bar, and further stiffen the front end by increasing front spring rates to 650-700 lbs/in and leave rear springs at 600 lbs with small rear bar and that is going to improve rotation?

slammed_93_hatch

Yes I am...

It's all about getting the most grip out of the front. Focus on the front get the most grip you can then worry about the rear. Who cares if the car rotates, if the front grip isn't optimal

RR98ITR

What's the problem Claude? Don't you want to keep that inside rear planted?

Scott, who enjoys mischief occassionally...

beanbag

No.

Also, 100 lbs behind the rear axle will increase the rear "weight" by more than 100 lbs.

STN_Pat

Ok me again, with an update.

I could not pass on a deal for Koni Race units locally. That will give me much more spring rate lattitude..........

They come with 600 and 800lbs springs.

I was thinking of using the 800lbs springs up front, with the 26mm bar still. I would use 600lbs springs in the rear, with a 22mm bar. I'll dial the toe as close to 0 as possible, and lower the front to have around -2 to -2.2. I'll keep the rear camber to around -1.5. Starting from there, I will use a pyrometer (I found out that a close friend I be at the track with has one and he will gladly let me use it. Fantastic.).

Considering this :

Should I go the route I suggested, or should I plant the 600lbs up front and 800lbs in the rear, using 26/22 bar ? I also have the front 22 bar laying around, but I like the turn in with the 26mm.

I will be as Shannonville Motorsports this saturday to test the actual set-up (no koni race yet, koni sorts, 550/600, 26mmF/22mmR bars, a bit more camber up front from lowering), removing gradually rear camber.

I am pretty confused in what works and what doesn't. It's like I forgot everything I thought I knew....I know I could try it out and i'd like to have pointers on where to start.

Please keep in mind that I am mostly using Toyo R compounds and using the car for medium to medium-high speed tracks. I am complaining from the lack of rotation from my supposedly rear biaised actual-setup. I've been satisfied rotation-wise in the last few years....but my driving may be maturing....that is why I am confused.

Patrick, who's sorry to add in again another complication multiplicator..........

89civicdx

What are your times at shannonville with this setup. Is it the long track? What type of motor are you running?

Lo-Buck EF

run 600f, 800r
-3*f -1*r
0-1/8 out front 0-1/8out rear
stock front bar, 22+ rear
start the shocks in the middle

im worried with 600/22mm in the rear, your rear roll stiffness will be too soft. although it will keep the tire on the ground, it still may not rotate the way you like it.
-spenc...who still thinks worrying about lifting an inside rear tire is like worrying about death. u cant stop it, so roll with it.

JW racing

Great,now it is 3 things that are certain,Taxes, Death, and liftin the rear inside wheel.

descartesfool

What he said.

Egezzy

iTrader: (2)

thats no joke. without a rear bar i was still dog pissing at expo.

JW racing

What differential are you using Pat?

Slightly off topic, but in all these threads we talk about handling this and wheel lifting that and rotation blah blah.Though not once does anyone discuss the differential and it's impacts.From my recent own experiences,there is a significant difference in Handling and Rotation from a helical,to a 1,a 2 and a 1.5 way,even with the exact same suspension setup.
The car feels so bound up with a 2 and 1.5 ways,unless you run mud/ice/gravel or ovals,we don't need them.Of all the changes I make and learn from,the diff has the largest impact and does wonders when you get it right.So john doe may have a dialed car and 800lb springs,but if you have another type of diff. the setup may vary from him;including on/off power and mid turn rotation.
It is fact in FWD the outside wheel needs to spin faster then the inside wheel to make a tighter circle,when you lock the wheels up(even 1 way at 100%) you have posi-traction and the front has to push since the wheels are spinning the same speed.Even a 1 way has to be set to 60% or less to get the on power steering we need in our cars.So be careful when diffs like a kaaz for example,are delivered to the USA at 100% lock from factory.

suprmods

Incremental changes.

If you switch to the koni race, swap spring rates, take out camber, change toe, etc etc all at once you'll have no idea what exactly caused what. The car will feel different for sure, but why?

Run your setup now with the bigger front bar, and less camber in the rear and see how it works. If you want to experiment, change the toe for one session, then next session play with the height if you want to, etc throughout the day.

Then when you put on the koni race do the same thing. Start with everything else the same except for the springs and dampers and feel it out, then change throughout the day.

I agree with 600f/800r, but don't agree that raising rear height to get more weight in the back is what you need. 1) More weight, more vertical load, more grip at rear tires, less rotation. 2) Same droop travel in the rear, but now rear ride height is increased, so the rear may just lift off the ground even sooner, which is something that you seem to care about.

Finally, changing driving style does necessitate a change in setup to accommodate. But I would let the lap times tell me where to go. Which is more important to you, a car that feels perfectly balanced (fun), or fast lap times (more fun?)? Sometimes the fastest setup does not always feel the most balanced.

descartesfool

Raising the rear will do nothing to change the weight distribution, unless you upset the corner balancing, but the rear to front % weight will stay the same regardless. The only reason to raise the rear (unless you have lowered it so much that suspension is out of proper working range) is to help with aero a little bit, assuming your car has any aero to speak of, and a slight rake from rear to front being popularly stated as being beneficial. I have never tried playing with rear vs front height for aero, but I have heard it is done. Might need a wind tunnel to see if you are actually benefiting from that.