Kozy.

What is a 'front stiff' setup? How do you define it?

Front spring rate > Rear spring rate?
Front frequency > rear frequency?
Front load transfer > rear load transfer?

On this forum? All the time...

ReDemoN

Great thread.
Scott is funny and kinda imformative.

RR98ITR

Way back in time when we around here were referring to fairly similar Honda/Acura chassis' reference to front or rear stiff was with respect to spring rates (a difference of 2-300lbs either way), and the accompanying assumption was a large rear bar and a stock or smaller or no front bar. But to generalize beyond that narrow window:

Spring rates? Not just.
Frequencies? Not even.
Load Transfer? Yes. (springs, bars, RC/MC) Exactly how much depends.

Everyone at whatever level of technical aptitude they possess tries to understand as best they can and apply those tools they are familiar with. Much of it is woeful. They don't know that - they're trying. Not that often very well or very hard.

It's so funny - over on the FSAE board Erik Z just took a round of criticism for his particularly brutal form of pedantry. Most of the criticism was self serving and missed his greater point: UNDERSTANDING is important. Any fool can apply any formula and proclaim the answer (and argue that they are efficient too!). And racing is often complicated enough that errors in one category of performance can be masked by outperformance in others - so wins don't necessarily prove anything either.

All this is gnawing away at me in the background. And I just started this thread to vent about it, in part since we have our share of such infection break out from time to time.

Scott, who recognizes much of his problem as stemming from jackstand fatigue....

JW racing

My car seemed to get better every time I swap to a bigger front bar and soften my rear 32mm hollow bar. Was it the front bar making all the impact? So last fall I tried to soften the rear springs alot and leave the front.. the car was trash, wouldnt stay flat it would take too much weight off the inside front during corner exit and so on. So i put the super stiff springs in the rear again and got back to my good lap times. Maybe I was going the right way but missed the important part of stiffening the front to reduce that roll?
Now was Ortiz right in stating the best way to make a fwd car fast was a long wheel base, stiff front, soft rear and staggared tires? It would look something like today's modern fwd drag cars would it not..or atleast a porsche driving backwards.. most fwd cars in "pro" levels do not look like this so I wonder if they are missing it as well.

Note comments at 2:10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsU6HMRbRcA

I dont think Foo's car was rear stiff I may be wrong. It doesnt say here.
http://www.modified.com/features/010...car/index.html

The first time I saw/heard of rear spring rates so much higher than the front was the realtime ITR when it first came out.

The rates that Spoon recommends for their old N1 (black damper) is 14/12 for the EG6, but this was for the B16A.
The jaccs EG was one of the best in the day and it too was front stiff. at 4:07 I just tripped out on the crazy offset the wheels are and skinny tires it had in the back, like 185's!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_trytv-4KQ

Note the offset of the wheels here on this EG too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xE3lpT03F9o

rice_classic

When was the last time you saw the world from behind a steering wheel, in anger, on a racetrack?

You seem generally very bored. Just admit we're all doing it wrong, get back to work on the car, accept the fact that it and ours will never be "perfect" and just go racing damnit.

As a NASCAR engineer once said to a reporter when asked when is it done; "It's never done but at some point it's time to go racing and we just have to stop what we're doing and put it on the trailer."

Go put it on the trailer Scott.

RED_90TEG

yeah.. but if u reach a cars limit stock... then u need to modify... most people don't drive fast enough to modify their cars anyways.. thats just what i think..

RR98ITR

Admit "we're all doing it wrong"? Like "you're all doing it wrong"? Or the we inclusive? Theoretically...from a certain point of view...I suppose it could be said of any of us. Ok.

I can't put it on the trailer till it rolls and runs...I'm workin on it. It's still about a shell with too few parts hanging on it. Just about done with all the re-refinements on the rear - had to do some more seam trimming on the RTA and mow a little off my sway bar arms, and go back to the conventional inboard UCA pivot. Packaging. It's harder than it looks. And you'd better look.

Bored...maybe...by the sheer passage of time. 3 years since...excepting outdoor and indoor karts which really help - especially if the racing is challenging which some has been. And don't say "in anger"...I know you know and it's just a turn of phrase, but even that is inappropriate. The emotions play little helpful role in a good race or lap.

Scott, who hopes to drive the kaa later this year...

rice_classic

I've seen several racers discover they like the lab more than the sandbox and either never get on track or give it up after 1 season. My priority is the nomex suit even if I occasionally am "doing it wrong".

I look forward to the day you trade your lab coat in for a nomex suit. What group and class if you don't mind me asking when that day arrives for you again?

solo-x

Wait, what's the question again? I thought we'd sorted this all out already?

Egezzy

iTrader: (2)

:roflcopter: #WellDone

Egezzy

iTrader: (2)

AARP. Advanced Amateur Racing-Prepared.

RR98ITR

Super Touring Over-Prepared...STOP.

Just kidding. Super Production Under 2.3 liters...SPU in SCCA Regional or Conference. For those who would wonder, the origins of such classes come from the old IMSA categories GTU and GTO...under and over 2.5 liters. The rules are pretty simple - tub based displacement limited - that's about it.

I've been thinking about it and yes I am bored...or something. I'm not driving (my race car) and I've pretty much learned what I wanted to learn - which means that the thrill of the chase (of the ideas and understanding) is passed. Which just leaves execution and driving - which is fine, don't get me wrong, I love that too. But the battle against ignorance and the attainment of understanding...that's a highly stimulating part of this sport/obsession/disease, and when it's gone or over or whatever it leaves a giant hole.

The other angle on bored is that over 14 years now of online Honda racing discussion I've seen many of my favorite friends drift off. Andy Sites, Glen Kawano, Victor Penner, to name some...all grown up or switched machinery type - I miss them. And then the board politics and migration and the gradual decline of that community as regards technical discussion to the point of barren sterility. And new screen names and avatars show up knowing nothing of what happened, what was argued, what was learned...and I feel like some 99 year old guy in a nursing home watching Obama vs Romney and saying "Turn that damn TV off...I've seen this show before...and could ya change my diaper!" And in saying that I want to say I'm sorry - I know that everybody comes to things in their own time and it's our choice to be welcoming or not and we should if we're nice people be welcoming and understanding.

And maybe this malaise variant is a bio thing. Science fiction teaches us that mojo levels decrease with age except for every so often when they go off the scale with varying outcomes. I guess some people are born with grace, some have to work at it, and others never heard of it. I just hope I never lose my sense of humor and hope that it keeps working most of the time.

Scott, who is going karting later today with a Fast friend...and then back in the shop...

Egezzy

iTrader: (2)

Nothing wrong with some rental kart action.

redzcstandardhatch

you, Scott, need to run a crapcan race.

I'm not kidding

forget all you've learned and know.... Just go have fun.

descartesfool

Hmmm....jaded, or just nothing left to learn? A little harsh methinks. It's only a game, everyone here just doing it for fun. Time to rewind to a point in time where it was all more pleasurable. And we can start all over again.

rice_classic

So the "circle of life" snuck up you and you're surprised by it? You mean that once you've taken your journey in the acquisition of knowledge you're disheartened by the fact that those who are just beginning, those who are new and thirsty don't have the same depth of the knowledge and this makes you frustrated? It's like a teacher who gets pissed at the start of the school year when his/her new class isn't as smart as the old class.. Well duh, what do you expect?

It sounds like you're having a hard time accepting your position, your role. You spent many years benefiting from the technical discussions of others, the brilliance of those before you and now that you've attained your knowledge and the old guard has left it is your turn to give back. You need to be the Glen Kawano and Victor Penner to the new generation. You benefited from their knowledge, now who's going to benefit from yours?

You're no longer the student Scott and if you're unwilling or too impatient to be the Teacher, well then... Good Luck I guess.


It's hard to have a carrot to chase if you're faster then all the carrots. I'm at a point in my development that my goals revolve around growing faster carrots.

known

iTrader: (1)

well said rice

Corey, who likes to read what Scott's cooking up sometimes lol

solo-x

For some reason, the next generation come across as self-entitled and more likely to regurgitate stuff they read on the internet than to go out and actually figure the **** out on their own. It's one thing when the discussion starts "So, I tried X and the result was Y. I was expecting result Z. Why the difference?" but when it starts as "I red somwear on teh innernet tat spring stiff up front causes front under steer, is dat tru?" I can't be bothered to respond. I think I'm just old. Get off my lawn!!!!

known

iTrader: (1)

I mean how old are some of you guys lol...Im 32 and you are acting like youre 50!

I dont want to get into this thread too much. I have experimented with several setups and like where Im currently at with the front softer.

Im trying to have fun club racing instead of making it so serious end of the world. Im just learning how to drive the way I sit.

JW racing

Truth about the circle, life goes by so fast that sometimes we are caught off guard by it's light speed and it triggers something in ones mind. Something like, crap I am here already?

If you get the feeling of a "full belly", sometimes it is good to burp and pass gas(in this case wisdom) to make room for new food.

Atmosfear

iTrader: (18)

Ah Hah! So this is why you are on an ITA recruiting campaign.....and all this time I thought you had a thing for me

RR98ITR

I had to check...you joined this board in 2001...it seems, along with the baggage you dropped in a paragraph full of "questions", that you must have missed the last 11 years. Yes, clearly I need to give back more.

I've been around the circle several times as I've depleted my physical capability over a lifetime now nearer the end than the beginning - it doesn't surprise me or pose a coping challenge. I miss old friends...from all of my previous lives. An innocent and simple enough sentiment. I tire of repetition. Same. I tire of the impulse to facetiousness. I note something passing...from my perspective. It's a substructure of life hidden all around us. It's not a fault. It just is. It's like when you're the last to leave the track as the light goes out and the temperature goes down...and the day still resonates within you and nobody would know but what you know is magic...was magic. Without that magic it's a curiosity. I'm only in it for the magic.

Scott, who doesn't know where magic will strike next...if at all...an old friend who lived thru a time of great magic told me that they didn't know how great it was at the time...

exgr

fwiw, i was on the phone with hyperco's tech guys recently. he told me i should be running the softest spring possible. use sway bars to control body roll. but, hyperco don't even make sway bars! and for all this time i've never really like big sway bars because i never got over the fact that they get pretty heavy. lol. but i think i better listen to the hyperco dude because those circle track guys they don't around... so now i'm hunting for some big bars and softer rates to play around and see what happens. :-)

my prior thinking was relatively stiff springs, use reasonable size bars to fine tune balance. swaybars shouldn't be too big because i want left and right wheel to be more "independent"...

finally picked up the DMS 50 mm from Mike. can't wait to try them out.

Billy Elliot

From what I've read on race suspension setup, you do want the softest springs and bars you can run. But be careful, you don't want to just run big bars with a soft spring either as you can bind the suspension and limit travel.

I'm not a suspension engineer, but my buddy is and that's what he told me when I gave him the same "Run a soft spring and big bars" question, because I thought the high rate sway bar would counter the extra roll you'd get from such a soft spring.

But really, all of this is just a matter of test and tune. No one setup is going to be universally the fastest. YOU might be faster with a slightly stiffer bar or spring than someone else in the same car.

exgr

if you would keep it more technical and less literary, i think it might help. :-P lot of times i just can't muster up enough brain power/attention to interpret what you're really saying.