Heel toe and left foot braking
04-11-2006, 01:11 PM
#1
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Heel toe and left foot braking
I had a question about these two techniques.
For heel toe, how do you keep solid brake pressure while hitting the gas? Whenever I try it, my foot comes off the brake some.
And for left foot braking, how and where exactly is this used?
Just looking for some pointers before I get to the track.
For heel toe, how do you keep solid brake pressure while hitting the gas? Whenever I try it, my foot comes off the brake some.
And for left foot braking, how and where exactly is this used?
Just looking for some pointers before I get to the track.
04-11-2006, 01:22 PM
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Re: Heel toe and left foot braking (drewbie)
just worry about getting your a$$ on track and getting seat time....it will all come with time in the seat!!!
04-11-2006, 01:30 PM
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Re: Heel toe and left foot braking (drewbie)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by drewbie »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">For heel toe, how do you keep solid brake pressure while hitting the gas? Whenever I try it, my foot comes off the brake some..</TD></TR></TABLE>
Keep the ball of your foot on the brake pedal applying braking force then roll your ankle and the right side of your right foot to blip the throttle. Pedal spacing is important and big feet can help.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by drewbie »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">IAnd for left foot braking, how and where exactly is this used? </TD></TR></TABLE>
This is normally done with light brake pressure and not heavy braking (and thus requiring a downshift). It lets you settle the chassis a little bit or lose a small amount of speed while staying on the throttle and keeping your tires and powertrain as consistently loaded as possible for smoothness. Also good for turbo cars so you don't fall off the boost pressure with a lift and suffer lag to get it back. This is normally done in corners or situations where you know that you won't be downshifting and won't get many surprises. You need to be careful at least or maybe avoid doing this is open traffic as you normally don't have that much control of the general situation knowing that you won't get caught in an emergency situation with your feet not in the right spot, at least until this becomes habit and second nature to you. Long, sweeping cloverleaf ramps are a decent place to practice this when the corner is clear and traffic isn't going to give you any surprises. Training your left leg to have the right touch is a bit awkward at first as it is normally used to the feel and spring tension and motion of the clutch pedal and not a steady and constant load like braking.
I learned both of these techniques while delivering pizzas in college. If you drive a Chevette or similar pizza racer, you probably won't get there quickly so you may as well learn good techniques. Be careful and conservative, don't go all aggressive boy racer on vehicular society as these can and should be practiced at normal speeds and sanity. Like playing an instrument, it just takes practice until the motion becomes second nature and you don't have to really think about it.
Keep the ball of your foot on the brake pedal applying braking force then roll your ankle and the right side of your right foot to blip the throttle. Pedal spacing is important and big feet can help.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by drewbie »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">IAnd for left foot braking, how and where exactly is this used? </TD></TR></TABLE>
This is normally done with light brake pressure and not heavy braking (and thus requiring a downshift). It lets you settle the chassis a little bit or lose a small amount of speed while staying on the throttle and keeping your tires and powertrain as consistently loaded as possible for smoothness. Also good for turbo cars so you don't fall off the boost pressure with a lift and suffer lag to get it back. This is normally done in corners or situations where you know that you won't be downshifting and won't get many surprises. You need to be careful at least or maybe avoid doing this is open traffic as you normally don't have that much control of the general situation knowing that you won't get caught in an emergency situation with your feet not in the right spot, at least until this becomes habit and second nature to you. Long, sweeping cloverleaf ramps are a decent place to practice this when the corner is clear and traffic isn't going to give you any surprises. Training your left leg to have the right touch is a bit awkward at first as it is normally used to the feel and spring tension and motion of the clutch pedal and not a steady and constant load like braking.
I learned both of these techniques while delivering pizzas in college. If you drive a Chevette or similar pizza racer, you probably won't get there quickly so you may as well learn good techniques. Be careful and conservative, don't go all aggressive boy racer on vehicular society as these can and should be practiced at normal speeds and sanity. Like playing an instrument, it just takes practice until the motion becomes second nature and you don't have to really think about it.
04-11-2006, 02:04 PM
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Re: Heel toe and left foot braking (CRX Lee)
Autox is also a great place to practice left foot braking because it usaully does not require shifting.
Left foot braking is used alot more in rallying than road racing it is mostly used to rotate the car.
Left foot braking is used alot more in rallying than road racing it is mostly used to rotate the car.
04-11-2006, 02:07 PM
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Re: Heel toe and left foot braking (drewbie)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by drewbie »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">For heel toe, how do you keep solid brake pressure while hitting the gas? Whenever I try it, my foot comes off the brake some.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Practice, practice, practice, practice, and more practice. Practice while you're driving on the streets. Out of habit I now blip the throttle for all downshifts in my car. It's to the point where I have to concentrate to not do it. It's probably not the best for MPG though
I've also read that your heels should never touch the ground while doing any pedal inputs. It's hard to do in a car with no leg support, but when you do it makes you feel the pedal fedback much more then if your heel is on the ground.
Practice, practice, practice, practice, and more practice. Practice while you're driving on the streets. Out of habit I now blip the throttle for all downshifts in my car. It's to the point where I have to concentrate to not do it. It's probably not the best for MPG though
I've also read that your heels should never touch the ground while doing any pedal inputs. It's hard to do in a car with no leg support, but when you do it makes you feel the pedal fedback much more then if your heel is on the ground.
04-11-2006, 04:41 PM
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For heel and toe there's two foot techniques that you can use, alot depends on your pedel's placement and top/bottem hinged accelerator.
There's what was described above with the ball of your foot on the brake and then rolling your ankle and using the outside of your foot on the gas with your heel on the floor.
Personally I use the second method which is to brake normally with the ball of your foot and then to rotate your whole foot about the brake pedel so that your heel comes off the floor and over the gas and then punching the gas with your heel.
Both take practice to keep your brake pressure constant while moving your foot. The throttle blip is actually the easiest part, just give the pedel a sharp whack and be ready with the clutch to release when the revs match. At first release the clutch when the revs are dropping past the match point, then with practice and speed you can release it while the revs are still going up for some really speedy downshifts.
There's what was described above with the ball of your foot on the brake and then rolling your ankle and using the outside of your foot on the gas with your heel on the floor.
Personally I use the second method which is to brake normally with the ball of your foot and then to rotate your whole foot about the brake pedel so that your heel comes off the floor and over the gas and then punching the gas with your heel.
Both take practice to keep your brake pressure constant while moving your foot. The throttle blip is actually the easiest part, just give the pedel a sharp whack and be ready with the clutch to release when the revs match. At first release the clutch when the revs are dropping past the match point, then with practice and speed you can release it while the revs are still going up for some really speedy downshifts.
04-11-2006, 08:04 PM
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Re: (sdcivic549)
if youre extremely comfortable with left foot braking you can use it sometimes mid corner to help rotate the car controllably. Particular situations i have found it helpful is if you wind up getting shifted off the optimal line or travelling tight chicanes...
But as someone pointed out, it is all about seat time and learning what techniques can assist you in given situations.
But as someone pointed out, it is all about seat time and learning what techniques can assist you in given situations.
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04-11-2006, 08:14 PM
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Re: Heel toe and left foot braking (nonsense)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nonsense »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Practice, practice, practice, practice, and more practice. Practice while you're driving on the streets. Out of habit I now blip the throttle for all downshifts in my car. It's to the point where I have to concentrate to not do it. It's probably not the best for MPG though
</TD></TR></TABLE>
This came up at the last race, when an HPDE guy asked me how to hell toe, or if i did it. I honestly couldn't give him an answer, on how to do it, or if i even did it. the next session out, i paid attention and i did do it. Im sure at some point i didn't and had to learn but i don't remeber when that was.
Practice, practice, practice, practice, and more practice. Practice while you're driving on the streets. Out of habit I now blip the throttle for all downshifts in my car. It's to the point where I have to concentrate to not do it. It's probably not the best for MPG though
</TD></TR></TABLE>
This came up at the last race, when an HPDE guy asked me how to hell toe, or if i did it. I honestly couldn't give him an answer, on how to do it, or if i even did it. the next session out, i paid attention and i did do it. Im sure at some point i didn't and had to learn but i don't remeber when that was.
04-11-2006, 09:20 PM
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Re: (sdcivic549)
People left foot brake for many different reasons, ranging from optimizing/changing the car's balance quickly, to saving fractions of a second in the transition from gas to brake (autox usually), to just feeling comfortable doing it or thinking it really does make them faster. Whatever it is, it's still a good thing to at least develop the feel and light touch of your left foot. Personally I do it everywhere in autox where a shift is not required. On the track, I catch myself covering the brake with my left foot when I want to be more aggressive in heavier traffic. Also noticed I do it often in turns that don't require a shift (like t2, t5, t6 at roebling, the tighter turns at cmp, or in a couple of places at vir most notably in my mind going into hog pen.)
As far as heel toe goes, if the revs are indeed getting matched close enough at the right time, it does help out your clutch, but it's also definitely not a prerequisite to going fast (depending on the car). Usually with RWD cars it's quite beneficial (if not almost required in some) to do it to prevent rear lock up, especially in heavier braking zones.
As far as heel toe goes, if the revs are indeed getting matched close enough at the right time, it does help out your clutch, but it's also definitely not a prerequisite to going fast (depending on the car). Usually with RWD cars it's quite beneficial (if not almost required in some) to do it to prevent rear lock up, especially in heavier braking zones.
04-11-2006, 11:16 PM
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Re: Heel toe and left foot braking (CRX Lee)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Lee »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
If you drive a Chevette or similar pizza racer, you probably won't get there quickly so you may as well learn good techniques</TD></TR></TABLE>
thats great
If you drive a Chevette or similar pizza racer, you probably won't get there quickly so you may as well learn good techniques</TD></TR></TABLE>
thats great
04-12-2006, 05:43 AM
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Re: Heel toe and left foot braking (nonsense)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nonsense »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've also read that your heels should never touch the ground while doing any pedal inputs. It's hard to do in a car with no leg support, but when you do it makes you feel the pedal fedback much more then if your heel is on the ground. </TD></TR></TABLE>
You know, I'd like to hear more about this. I had a dude criticize me when I said I preferred having my heel touching the floor. The way he put it was, "Well, I think that when you're really doing it correctly, your foot isn't touching the floor at all." I used to do it that way, and found it WAY harder to modulate pedal pressure. That one change (keeping my heel on the floor) made everything much much smoother and more controllable. That's also less strain on the body overall (not holding the whole leg up), and uses less muscles for the action of braking (again, not straining to hold the leg up), so I would think would allow for finer foot movements. To me, the pedal feedback is there just as much as otherwise. Are there any benefits that I'm not thinking of?
You know, I'd like to hear more about this. I had a dude criticize me when I said I preferred having my heel touching the floor. The way he put it was, "Well, I think that when you're really doing it correctly, your foot isn't touching the floor at all." I used to do it that way, and found it WAY harder to modulate pedal pressure. That one change (keeping my heel on the floor) made everything much much smoother and more controllable. That's also less strain on the body overall (not holding the whole leg up), and uses less muscles for the action of braking (again, not straining to hold the leg up), so I would think would allow for finer foot movements. To me, the pedal feedback is there just as much as otherwise. Are there any benefits that I'm not thinking of?
04-12-2006, 06:04 AM
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Re: Heel toe and left foot braking (sscguy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sscguy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
You know, I'd like to hear more about this. I had a dude criticize me when I said I preferred having my heel touching the floor. The way he put it was, "Well, I think that when you're really doing it correctly, your foot isn't touching the floor at all." I used to do it that way, and found it WAY harder to modulate pedal pressure. That one change (keeping my heel on the floor) made everything much much smoother and more controllable. That's also less strain on the body overall (not holding the whole leg up), and uses less muscles for the action of braking (again, not straining to hold the leg up), so I would think would allow for finer foot movements. To me, the pedal feedback is there just as much as otherwise. Are there any benefits that I'm not thinking of?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I keep my heel on the floor too. I feel I have much more control. I use the roll my foot method though and not hte pick up my heel and move it over method. It is much harder in the Wife's honda than in my BMW...pedal height and spacing will dictate the method.
You know, I'd like to hear more about this. I had a dude criticize me when I said I preferred having my heel touching the floor. The way he put it was, "Well, I think that when you're really doing it correctly, your foot isn't touching the floor at all." I used to do it that way, and found it WAY harder to modulate pedal pressure. That one change (keeping my heel on the floor) made everything much much smoother and more controllable. That's also less strain on the body overall (not holding the whole leg up), and uses less muscles for the action of braking (again, not straining to hold the leg up), so I would think would allow for finer foot movements. To me, the pedal feedback is there just as much as otherwise. Are there any benefits that I'm not thinking of?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I keep my heel on the floor too. I feel I have much more control. I use the roll my foot method though and not hte pick up my heel and move it over method. It is much harder in the Wife's honda than in my BMW...pedal height and spacing will dictate the method.
04-12-2006, 06:20 AM
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Re: Heel toe and left foot braking (sscguy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sscguy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> "Well, I think that when you're really doing it correctly, your foot isn't touching the floor at all." </TD></TR></TABLE>
I think that what you need to do is whatever works for you.
It's going to depend on how you're able to move your ankle, how your pedals are mounted and hinged, how big your foot is, and how big the pedals are.
There are H1 and H2 champions who have won their races without any heel/toe at all, although they do rev match in that 1/2 an instant before they begin accelerating.
On the other hand, our future H4 champion is a huge proponenet of heel/toe <u>and</u> an almost violent left foot braking technique.
I think we really have to find these things out for ourselves. Keep an open mind, and try what people are telling you...but it only works if it works for YOU.
This kind of perception hits you, I think, around the time it hits you that there really is no "line" except the "line" that gets you safely around the car in front of you.
(And FWIW, this particular very bad driver never left brakes, and he keeps his heel on the floor.)
I think that what you need to do is whatever works for you.
It's going to depend on how you're able to move your ankle, how your pedals are mounted and hinged, how big your foot is, and how big the pedals are.There are H1 and H2 champions who have won their races without any heel/toe at all, although they do rev match in that 1/2 an instant before they begin accelerating.
On the other hand, our future H4 champion is a huge proponenet of heel/toe <u>and</u> an almost violent left foot braking technique.
I think we really have to find these things out for ourselves. Keep an open mind, and try what people are telling you...but it only works if it works for YOU.
This kind of perception hits you, I think, around the time it hits you that there really is no "line" except the "line" that gets you safely around the car in front of you.
(And FWIW, this particular very bad driver never left brakes, and he keeps his heel on the floor.)
04-12-2006, 06:26 AM
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Re: Heel toe and left foot braking (George Knighton)
Ya man heel toe is a bit tricky at first. I sucked the first couple of times i tried to do it, i would not match my revs right at all and my foot would always come off the brake. Its just one of those things, its like riding a bike for the first time its hard at first but once you get the hang of it, there is nothing really like it. It will open your eyes onto a whole new world of drive!
04-12-2006, 06:53 AM
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Re: Heel toe and left foot braking (ej_civic99)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ej_civic99 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ya man heel toe is a bit tricky at first. I sucked the first couple of times i tried to do it, i would not match my revs right at all and my foot would always come off the brake. Its just one of those things, its like riding a bike for the first time its hard at first but once you get the hang of it, there is nothing really like it. It will open your eyes onto a whole new world of drive!</TD></TR></TABLE>
Your SHOES are important too.. the shape , size and how much they let you feel all will matter.
Your SHOES are important too.. the shape , size and how much they let you feel all will matter.
04-12-2006, 07:53 AM
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Re: Heel toe and left foot braking (sscguy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sscguy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You know, I'd like to hear more about this. I had a dude criticize me when I said I preferred having my heel touching the floor. The way he put it was, "Well, I think that when you're really doing it correctly, your foot isn't touching the floor at all." I used to do it that way, and found it WAY harder to modulate pedal pressure. That one change (keeping my heel on the floor) made everything much much smoother and more controllable. That's also less strain on the body overall (not holding the whole leg up), and uses less muscles for the action of braking (again, not straining to hold the leg up), so I would think would allow for finer foot movements. To me, the pedal feedback is there just as much as otherwise. Are there any benefits that I'm not thinking of?</TD></TR></TABLE>
You know I have a hard time with it as well. I think it's because I'm having to hold up my foot because of the seat and the angle. I can see that if I had more support under my thigh pushing my knees up a little higher it would be easier to do. I still find it easier to modulate the pedal pressure ith my heel down though.
When I went to road racing school the instructor told us that having your heel up really helps if you're doing the "real" heel-toe action where you're using your heel to blip the throttle. His reasonin is that if you start braking with your heel on the ground then have to lift it to blip the throttle you can't keep the same level of brake modulation. Since I have longish legs and wide enough feet I can heel-toe with my heel on the floor, using the left side of my foot to brake and rolling over to blip the throttle.
I learned at the school that I wasn't blipping the throttle enough at first so when I went to let out the clutch the revs were already dropped too much to make it worthwhile. So they told me to sit in the car with the engine running and trans in neutral, apply even pressure to the brake pedal and practice revving the engine. All I remember was teh instructor saying "more revs, more revs" once I got it down sitting there it was a breeze while driving.
His rule was 1000 more RPM than you're going to be at when you let out the clutch. So say you're going 3rd to 2nd and when you release the clutch the RPMs will be at 3000, you need top blip to around 4000 rpm.
You know I have a hard time with it as well. I think it's because I'm having to hold up my foot because of the seat and the angle. I can see that if I had more support under my thigh pushing my knees up a little higher it would be easier to do. I still find it easier to modulate the pedal pressure ith my heel down though.
When I went to road racing school the instructor told us that having your heel up really helps if you're doing the "real" heel-toe action where you're using your heel to blip the throttle. His reasonin is that if you start braking with your heel on the ground then have to lift it to blip the throttle you can't keep the same level of brake modulation. Since I have longish legs and wide enough feet I can heel-toe with my heel on the floor, using the left side of my foot to brake and rolling over to blip the throttle.
I learned at the school that I wasn't blipping the throttle enough at first so when I went to let out the clutch the revs were already dropped too much to make it worthwhile. So they told me to sit in the car with the engine running and trans in neutral, apply even pressure to the brake pedal and practice revving the engine. All I remember was teh instructor saying "more revs, more revs" once I got it down sitting there it was a breeze while driving.
His rule was 1000 more RPM than you're going to be at when you let out the clutch. So say you're going 3rd to 2nd and when you release the clutch the RPMs will be at 3000, you need top blip to around 4000 rpm.
04-12-2006, 08:38 AM
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Re: Heel toe and left foot braking (nonsense)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think that what you need to do is whatever works for you. </TD></TR></TABLE>
George, this is good advice, and despite that goob's suggestion, I have no intention of changing my technique. It does the job for me, it's smooth, and there aren't any problems with it that I've been able to find.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nonsense »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">When I went to road racing school the instructor told us that having your heel up really helps if you're doing the "real" heel-toe action where you're using your heel to blip the throttle. His reasonin is that if you start braking with your heel on the ground then have to lift it to blip the throttle you can't keep the same level of brake modulation. </TD></TR></TABLE>
This may have been the difference. When I first started back in the day, I was doing the "turn heel all the way over there" method. For that, I could see the heel starting on the floor as being problematic. I also have long legs and big feet though, so I use the ankle-rolling variety.
</TD></TR></TABLE>George, this is good advice, and despite that goob's suggestion, I have no intention of changing my technique. It does the job for me, it's smooth, and there aren't any problems with it that I've been able to find.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nonsense »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">When I went to road racing school the instructor told us that having your heel up really helps if you're doing the "real" heel-toe action where you're using your heel to blip the throttle. His reasonin is that if you start braking with your heel on the ground then have to lift it to blip the throttle you can't keep the same level of brake modulation. </TD></TR></TABLE>
This may have been the difference. When I first started back in the day, I was doing the "turn heel all the way over there" method. For that, I could see the heel starting on the floor as being problematic. I also have long legs and big feet though, so I use the ankle-rolling variety.
04-13-2006, 09:59 AM
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Re: Heel toe and left foot braking (sscguy)
I am a heel-on-floor rotational-heel-toer right-braker. After struggling with heel-toe for the first few weeks on the street, I got more and more comfortable with it to the point where I'm totally comfortable with it and do it all the time on my daily drive and am even pretty comfy getting into 1st in auto-x.
I have just started to try left-foot braking though and it's *rather* hard for me. I'm pretty sure I don't have my heel on the floor when left-braking like I do with my right. I really don't like it but I feel like I could be losing a couple tenths out on the auto-x course by not learning it. Maybe I'll make it a goal by the end of the season... I'm SO bad at it though.
I have just started to try left-foot braking though and it's *rather* hard for me. I'm pretty sure I don't have my heel on the floor when left-braking like I do with my right. I really don't like it but I feel like I could be losing a couple tenths out on the auto-x course by not learning it. Maybe I'll make it a goal by the end of the season... I'm SO bad at it though.
04-13-2006, 11:02 AM
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Left foot braking in a car with synchronized gears is going to be hard on your tranny. If it was a straight cut box than I would say go for it. A lot of people have there own preference. If your trying to heel-toe on the street, you do not use the same pressures than when you are on the track. This may be why your foot is coming off the brake a bit. On a street car it's not really heel/toe it's more so the middle of your foot on the brake and the gas. When you start practicing and get better with it, you'll want to do all the movement within your ankle/foot a lot of beginners start off by moving there leg, it just takes a bit of getting use to. ***It's very important you concentrate on braking and not just blipping. *** I can't tell you how many times I've seen people slow cars down using there tranny's. Brake rotors are cheaper use them up! To be honest, worry about your line first than dial in your blips. It's not necessarily going to make you faster however, it makes braking and downshifting a lot smoother. A lot of people blip, a lot of people don't. Also, just make sure when you do start heel/toe downshifting you don't get gas and brake in the brake zones. It will screw your entry and possible lockup of the tires. Well hope that helps.
04-13-2006, 11:32 AM
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Re: (JDM Factor)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDM Factor »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Left foot braking in a car with synchronized gears is going to be hard on your tranny. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Interesting, is there a reason for this?
Interesting, is there a reason for this?
04-13-2006, 11:53 AM
#21
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Re: Heel toe and left foot braking (drewbie)
I just started to heal-toe. After 2 years of driving on tracks I finally decided I had to force myself to do this.
What really helped me was raising the steering wheel ( Im 6'3) and positioning my foot near the right side of the brake pedal almost halfway up the pedal. Almost standing on the pedal with the ball of my foot, my leg can hold a nice steady pressure on the pedal and with my foot crocked i relax my ankle and my heal blips the throttle. I do most of my braking and try to blip closer to the end of the braking zone so I can slow down hard initially and still be slowing evenly when the heal toe happens. I have been watching alot of the Best motoring videos listening to rhythm and I think that is also helping.
Left foot braking? The only time I do this is when I pre pressureize the brakes before the end of a straight.
Don't worry about doing this if you are unfamiliar with the track. Find the line, braking zones and limits of your tires first.
Good luck.
What really helped me was raising the steering wheel ( Im 6'3) and positioning my foot near the right side of the brake pedal almost halfway up the pedal. Almost standing on the pedal with the ball of my foot, my leg can hold a nice steady pressure on the pedal and with my foot crocked i relax my ankle and my heal blips the throttle. I do most of my braking and try to blip closer to the end of the braking zone so I can slow down hard initially and still be slowing evenly when the heal toe happens. I have been watching alot of the Best motoring videos listening to rhythm and I think that is also helping.
Left foot braking? The only time I do this is when I pre pressureize the brakes before the end of a straight.
Don't worry about doing this if you are unfamiliar with the track. Find the line, braking zones and limits of your tires first.
Good luck.
04-13-2006, 12:19 PM
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Re: (JDM Factor)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDM Factor »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Left foot braking in a car with synchronized gears is going to be hard on your tranny.</TD></TR></TABLE>
This doesn't really make any sense. Once the car is in gear the synchro's just sit there. Besides you shouldn't be fooling with shiftiing while left foot braking. Are you talking about clutchless shifting maybe?
The whole heel on the floor or in the air bit I think is really a question of seating position and a bit of style. I've used the heel off the floor technique once and it was actually pretty comfortable. It was also in a race truck with a really close upright NASCAR style seating arragement and tall under-thigh bolsters to keep your legs up and in place with a very narrow offset pedel box.
I think that the most overlooked part of driver ergonomics has to be leg and pedel placement. All your pedel inputs should be made with your ankles and not your leg muscles, and you can't do that properly if your legs are flopping all over the place and you're expending a bunch of effort to hold them in place. This is tough to do in a production car admittedly. An effort to really relax their legs would probly suprise a few people with the amount of feel you gain.
This doesn't really make any sense. Once the car is in gear the synchro's just sit there. Besides you shouldn't be fooling with shiftiing while left foot braking. Are you talking about clutchless shifting maybe?
The whole heel on the floor or in the air bit I think is really a question of seating position and a bit of style. I've used the heel off the floor technique once and it was actually pretty comfortable. It was also in a race truck with a really close upright NASCAR style seating arragement and tall under-thigh bolsters to keep your legs up and in place with a very narrow offset pedel box.
I think that the most overlooked part of driver ergonomics has to be leg and pedel placement. All your pedel inputs should be made with your ankles and not your leg muscles, and you can't do that properly if your legs are flopping all over the place and you're expending a bunch of effort to hold them in place. This is tough to do in a production car admittedly. An effort to really relax their legs would probly suprise a few people with the amount of feel you gain.
04-13-2006, 01:02 PM
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Re: (Hracer)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hracer »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Interesting, is there a reason for this?</TD></TR></TABLE> I don't know if he means left foot braking while downshifting or left foot braking in general. You will certainly mess up the tranny if you don't push the clutch in. Rev match or not, your asking for trouble if don't push the clutch in as intended to.
Interesting, is there a reason for this?</TD></TR></TABLE> I don't know if he means left foot braking while downshifting or left foot braking in general. You will certainly mess up the tranny if you don't push the clutch in. Rev match or not, your asking for trouble if don't push the clutch in as intended to.
04-13-2006, 02:06 PM
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You can mess up your tranny if you shift clutchlessly IF you mess it up.
I forget who said it but "Any driver worth his salt should be prepared for the day that they push the clutch pedal and nothing happens."
Clutchless shifting on any type of gearbox is possible and can be done well without excessive wear and tear. On a synchro box it's tougher to get right and fairly slow due to the synchro's getting in the way. On a dog engagement box it's actually alot easier and faster.
In normal circumstances I'd say use the clutch on upshifts without exception due to the need to get it right on the first try and more power being fed through the box. Downshifting with proper heel and toe technique makes the clutch optional. The point is that you shouldn't be forced to pull off track or even slow down your pace much due to clutch actuation failure, trying to get going out of the pits is annother matter but in a sprint race you won't need to.
Practice clutchless shifting on a car you don't like or a rental/beater etc, be firm with the shifter, especially on a synchro box but don't force it if it doesn't want to go, this is what breaks your tranny. there's a rythem to the timing that's not too difficult to find and like heel and toe it becomes second nature plus it will improve the smoothness of your shifting with the clutch.
According to some being able to dance helps
I forget who said it but "Any driver worth his salt should be prepared for the day that they push the clutch pedal and nothing happens."
Clutchless shifting on any type of gearbox is possible and can be done well without excessive wear and tear. On a synchro box it's tougher to get right and fairly slow due to the synchro's getting in the way. On a dog engagement box it's actually alot easier and faster.
In normal circumstances I'd say use the clutch on upshifts without exception due to the need to get it right on the first try and more power being fed through the box. Downshifting with proper heel and toe technique makes the clutch optional. The point is that you shouldn't be forced to pull off track or even slow down your pace much due to clutch actuation failure, trying to get going out of the pits is annother matter but in a sprint race you won't need to.
Practice clutchless shifting on a car you don't like or a rental/beater etc, be firm with the shifter, especially on a synchro box but don't force it if it doesn't want to go, this is what breaks your tranny. there's a rythem to the timing that's not too difficult to find and like heel and toe it becomes second nature plus it will improve the smoothness of your shifting with the clutch.
According to some being able to dance helps
04-13-2006, 03:20 PM
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Clutchless shifting period on a car that was made with a clutch is just retarded. I've tried it, and all you do is break things on a synchronized gearbox. A dogbox, straight cut gears, which ever you want to call it is an exception. Drewbie, just work on your heel/toe don't think about left foot braking or clutchless downshifting on your street car.
