realride

If seam welding was not allowed, the type R would not be allowed in H2 class. As you know the type R are seam welded from the factory.

benny

slammed_93_hatch

No they aren't.

Austin

The Type-R has extra spot welds and thicker metal around the rear shock towers and lower subframe, not seam welding.

Lo-Buck EF

correct.
i had this conversation with someone building a car currantly also. he was all set to get teh car done and i had to burst his bubble. seam welding is not legal in h2-5. iirc, its legal in h1 with a penalty. but i'd have to go re-read the '09 rules to be 100% on the h1 stuff.

Austin

There is not a single mention of "Seam Welding" in the 2009 Honda Challenge rules outside of 4.9.E, which pertains to the roll cage:

"e) Tubes may be welded at any contact point, or even be “seam welded.” Additional material may be used to connect roll cage tubing to chassis of car. I.E. A pillar bar may have material welded to both itself and the A pillar of the car."

I remember that a few years back it was legal in H1, but it was later removed.

Based upon the 2009 HC rules, Seam Welding is not allowed.

Austin

Here we go, I found the picture of the exact chassis modifications that Honda did to the Type-R:

realride

The chasis modifications on the type R are considered seam or stick welding. we are now playing with word to describe the same identical issue.
There is much more stiffening on the type R than any other honda. So are you saying type R are illegal ?

here from honda tech sheet.
...These were the result of extensive changes, including a strengthened chassis with extra spot welds and thicker metal around the rear shock towers and lower subframe, weight reduction....

Benny

slammed_93_hatch

No one said the ITR was illegal.

It isn't seam welded either. It says right in the "honda tech sheet" you quoted "extra spot welds".

The definition of spot weld is different then a seam weld.

And it came with "extra" spot welds as compared to a regular integra. The regular integra could have more spot welds then a CRX or civic. It doesn't matter.

Seam welding IS NOT legal.

realride

You are playing with words. there is no such a thing as seam weld when talking about a car. The metal is way to thin to be able to weld the entire seam. Seam weld is just used as a comon word like a fridge (fridgidere is a brand). A race car has spot weld and not seam weld. most people used the comon name of seam weld or stich to describe what is in fact a spot weld.
benny

slammed_93_hatch

Eh maybe it is playing with words, but so is taking the term "seam welding" completly out of context and using it as your rational for something being legal.

Your ITR argument doesn't hold water either. The rules do not allow seam welding. Or extra spot welding. If the ITR has extra spot welding then good for it, it came from the factory with it.

It doesn't mean you can use it as rational for you seam welding your chassis. (stitch welding the seams is a better term, but still not legal.

realride

You are trying to create an argument where none exist. A simple question was ask regarding extra weld on the rear shock tower, and you jump in without a clue.

Any car involve in a accident that require "frame work" will need to have extra welds to reinforce weack point created by streching the car back.
P.S: the type r welds are done by hands not on the regular built line. So technicaly from what you are saying, if a honda factory tech does a full stich welding on a car it's legal !
thx god I'm good friend with rich

Benny

slammed_93_hatch

actually i do have a clue.

Keep grasping at straws all you want. Stitch welding, and/or Seam welding are not legal.

If you feel you have a great case of why they should be legal submit a rules request.

I am sure this will turn out like the wrist pin issue, and like the cam in the F22a issue.

realride

Base on your opinion you should make a rule request to remove type r out of H2. they are for sure stich welded. Check with Honda they will confirm.
benny

slammed_93_hatch

no i shouldn't.

it comes from the Factory (IE when a dealer got an ITR) with the SPOT welding was already done.

Again you are grasping at straws to try and make your argument stick.

And your buddy Rich does not = factory Honda.

Distort and twist the rules all you want, it doesn't make legal.

vtecjj

Here's my take-
SPOT WELDS are from the factory. SEAM WELDS are ADDITIONAL WELDS by a welder.

I don't know if SEAM WELDS are legal or not...I really don't care.

Benny, if you're car is ILLEGAL from seam welding, you can buy mine.

jmeris

realride

LOL
Still trying to sell me that car !!!
here from honda PR....With a strategically seam welded monocoque chassis, this lithe 3 door gave many competitors with larger price tags, ... Even Honda use the word seam welded. Also this 'seam weld" occur outside of Honda factory to a sub-contractor. Hmmm so it's not Honda factory

Actually seam, stitch welding is not a good thing. With the cage design now days there is not point to stitch weld a car , no gain will occur, but in case of an accident requiring a frame job or replacing panel, it's become a nightmare for a body shop to work on the car and very expensive.

now the question is: is the type R legal in h2 ?
Benny

JuanTushag

HI Guys!!

I dont think the rules can contain verbage for every situation. ( without looking like a credit card privacy statement at least ) .

I have always thought , and still believe,, that we are only talking about 2 different situations here. Spot welding, and other than spot welding - (which the rules refer to as seam welding.)

There are many different terms that can be used , and in relation to body/cage/tubes etc. But I believe the intent of the rule is to clearly define spot welding from others ( and incur its respective 30lb penalty )

If that were not the case,, wouldnt we all be in violation!!?!? All of our cages where they mount to the floor are seam/stitch welded.

Benny has worked really hard to be in compliance with the rules , on this car and others.

Hey here is a question that is not addressed in the rules, Whats the difference between a washing machine and a flight attendant?

JT

Ekasey

I think there's a quite a lot of misinformation in this thread and wether the cage is legal or not if up to NASA to decide, and not anyone on this forum. However my take on it as that this is clearly outside the spirit of the rules. Does it have a competitive advantage...at the club race level more then likely it wont.

spot welding
n. Welding of overlapping pieces of metal at small points by application of great pressure and electric current.
spot'-weld' (spŏt'wěld') v., spot'-weld'er n.

Resistance Seam Welding is a resistance welding process that produces a weld at the faying surfaces of overlapped parts along a length of a joint. The weld may be made by overlapping weld nuggets, a continuous weld nugget or by forging the joint as it is heated to the welding temperature by resistance to the flow of welding current. Instead of using two cylindrical electrodes as in case of spot welding, here two circular disks are used as electrodes. The workpiece is passed through the space between the two discs, and under pressure applied by the discs and current flowing through them, a continuous weld is formed.

So what you're essentially doing is a form of seam welding, but neither because no fabricator i know has the proper equipment to do either as they are truely defined.

It doesn't matter who knows who at Honda, or what the stupid Press Release says, the fact of the matter is you're never going to get any real engineering documentation besides the previously posted picture.

JuanTushag

interesting, i never knew how factory seam welding was done. I THINK the rules were written using seam welding as a generic term. I also THINK i should have been given a pony for my 9th birthday.

Ekasey

So that's whats wrong with you? I never would have figured it was the classic no Pony on the 9th birthday trauma.

My general uneducated know nothing about racing opinion tells me that this is no where near the intention or spirit of the rules. However it's up to nasa to decide, not us E-racers

JuanTushag

you coming to willow Kasey?

realride

That's exactly my point. I used to own a type r H2 that, got crashed at willow spring. When I completely dismantle the type r I was very surprised to find out manual weld done to the under car at the suspensions points. I did quite a bit of research ( some of you who knows me, know how **** I can be trying to find out answers) and learn that Honda does do some "seam" welding to all their type r model. Even more if you have a 2001 civic R type from the UK market, it will have a JDM vin, but in UK Honda send out shell to UK to be seam welded outside of Honda factory than ship back to Japan for final assembly.

So if the rules determine that "seam" welding is not allowed in H2, all type R should be remove from H2.

I need clarification from official on this one.

P.S: Renan if you really want I will buy you a ride on a poney

thx
benny

Ekasey

It's possible Renan, if I'm in town, just got back From tulsa for the Chili bowl, and the 24 Hours of Daytona. I gotta head to Indie next week for some engine mapping, and then DC to measure up a car for a new harness.

Benny, I really think you're missing the whole point here, the Car comes that way. Does it offer a competitive advantage, I really don't think that at the club racing level it does. There is a ton more being left on the table in driving talent.

I beleive the spirit of the rule is to be able to "seam weld" your floor plates or tubes to the chassis, and nothing more, this is a standard part of cage fabrication. However I don't beleive (regardless of what the type R has) that it means you can go and seam weld together parts of the chassis for structural reinforcement. The reason for this being is cost.

prkiller

Benny,

I really wouldn't worry about it. I think it's pretty obvious from the pictures that you didn't seam weld up the car! Looks to me that you repaired some areas that were splitting at the seams.
I don't think anyone will truly think you beat them because of a repair you made to the car!
Car looks great!

realride

I'm agreeing with you. I just spend a lot of money and effort to make sure my car is fully legal, and as you know, you were one of the first person pointing the fact the car was not strait and was involve in a accident, I had to have the car work on a frame and pull back to it's original shape, thus had to well some spot to reinforce the metal. Has every one knows when you bend metal in 2 different direction you weaken the metal.

Benny