descartesfool

While I’m having a royal pain trying to assemble various AN parts from different manufactures someone sold me that don't want to go together, I was wondering why we use them at all. Honda sure doesn't, nor does say Subaru for turbo cars, and their lines don't fall off or cost an arm and a leg. Is this AN stuff just a leftover from the second World War that everyone keeps using because everyone keeps using it? I went back to my Carroll Smith reference, Screw to Win, and re-read the High-performance plumbing chapter.

In it he says (book is circa 1990), "You are pretty safe using Detroit, Japanese or German original equipment water hose". I guess that is what Honda is doing and I may be wrong, but I don't see their OEM hoses failing (assuming they are in good shape of course). All Honda uses is a straight metal or plastic pipe with a beaded end and then a simple, fast and very efficient hose clamp that comes off and goes on in a couple of seconds with the proper clamp removal tool (or a pair of pliers). Old Carroll didn't refer to the Honda clamps specifically, but to a similar clamp in principle called a Corbin (wire) hose clamp. He said "I hate the things but I must admit that they also apply a constant clamping force, regardless of any tendency of the hose to cold-flow. I must also admit that I have never seen a failure that I could attribute to a Corbin clamp". So Honda uses this straight tube with beaded end and rubber hose and simple clamp for water hoses, air/vacuum/pressure hoses, hoses from the power steering (low pressure side) and steel lines for high pressure stuff like brakes. Of course as Mr. Smith recommends, and Honda does "Make(s) absolutely sure that no part of the water system, either rubber or metal, can rub against anything at all"

That leaves pressurized oil lines, for which Carroll says "Is all that lovely and expensive aircraft style red, blue and silver aluminum and stainless plumbing stuff really necessary? No strictly speaking, it isn't really necessary". I would assume that all the hydraulic lines on trucks are not made by Aeroquip or Earl’s, and the fleets seem to cover the miles just fine.



An Earl’s -10 45 degree Swivel-Seal hose fitting costs almost $24 or $48 for two, and $44 for stainless hose so it’s $92 for a 6 foot oil line. It all seems so expensive and perhaps overkill if there is an alternate way, such as having a truck shop make up some 37 degree cone and flare rubber pressure rated hoses. Might not be as pretty or racer bling though.

And now I will get back to the Earl’s Pro-lite hose not fitting the Russell hose ends, and swear a little more. There has to be a better way. Honda thinks so.

CRX Lee

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by descartesfool &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And now I will get back to the Earl’s Pro-lite hose not fitting the Russell hose ends, and swear a little more. </TD></TR></TABLE>
That reminds me of what I was told when I was shopping for my first braided line and AN connections. I was talking to a guy who used to work for Earls and but was still in the race industry. He said that Aeroquip was great stuff for planes and pro race teams but generally was overkill for the needs and budget of the amateurs. Earl's was maybe not as good but should take care of most needs and budgets of amateur racers like us. Russell was for the bottom budgets and drag rafcers who only needed to trust their parts 1/4 mile at a time. I ended up going with XRP which he ranked at or slightly above Earls but at the similar to slightly lower prices.

I forget how much I spent on braided lines and ends for my fuel cell, oil cooler, Accusump, etc. but at the moment I only have the cell lines hooked up. I'm not using the oil cooler, remote filter or Accusump for now so many hundreds of dollars of pretty stuff are sitting on the shelf.

descartesfool

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Lee &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I forget how much I spent on braided lines and ends for my fuel cell, oil cooler, Accusump, etc. but at the moment I only have the cell lines hooked up. I'm not using the oil cooler, remote filter or Accusump for now so many hundreds of dollars of pretty stuff are sitting on the shelf.
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Fuel lines, I forgot to mention those. Standard line pressure is about 43 psi I think, and they are all rubber or steel pipe, with the odd banjo fitting on my Hondas, and I never worry about them failing, nor have they. I re-built an old 1970 911 a few years ago, and due to rust replaced all the hard steel lines, and it was all pretty easy with a tubing cutter, bender, flare tool and new ends, and sooooo much cheaper than AN lines. Plus the old rubber with steel ends oil cooler lines still looked great after 35 years and I re-used them and they work as intended. I did change the fuel lines due to the ends being damage from screw on clamps and peace of mind.

Maybe we just need some hose barbs that aren't barbs (ever seen a barb on a Honda? I hear wasps use them for your skin!) but are a beaded straight pipe and good quality rubber hose with clips to plumb custom lines.

Safir

I like AN hose ends because I find them easier to install (putting the line on the car, not install the end on the line) and remove than banjo, flares, and most beaded metal pipe fittings. Sine i know i'm just going to break something in a week or two, that outweighs the trouble of making the lines. There have also been places where a barb is too "long" and a banjo won't fit, but a 90 degree AN fitting was perfect. I wouldn't give up my AN fittings for anything.

a note on barbs: my local parker store sells "clampless" barbs - the "barb" part is taller and steeper than a "normal" barb - press the hose on and it will hold pressure, and is damn near impossible to get off. I use them on my adapters from my bling-y AN lines to the stock rubber fuel lines with no leaks.

rpr

Yeah, I have an oil line made with those clampless barbs. I was told they are good up to 300PSI, which is way more than I need.

mos

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by descartesfool &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> It all seems so expensive and perhaps overkill if there is an alternate way, such as having a truck shop make up some 37 degree cone and flare rubber pressure rated hoses. Might not be as pretty or racer bling though.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yep, its overkill. Just today I was installing some brass 37 degree fittings and hoses on a forklift. They will hold 200psi of propane just fine, and for a hell of a lot cheaper than the SS or annodized stuff. I am sure this would work fine on a car if you didnt mind the gold color.

Boilermaker1

I agree its overkill, but there's something about screw on fittings that makes me feel safer with them. I trust that Honda did it right, but the real question is do I trust myself to do it right the same way? Most times, I don't. So I sucker up and use AN lines to plumb important things like oil. The compression ends are fool proof (once you get them on), you pretty much know its not gonna spring a leak and unless something really goes sour, you're not going to blow the fitting off the line either. As far as using like a rubber hydraulic hose instead... yeah, I'd probably use it if I knew where to get it, but I don't do enough SS hose work to care that the few times I have used it it cost me an arm and 1/2 a leg.

Willard

For my application... it was an arm and a leg for a substandard OE replacement. Having an oil inlet line break on you when you are in Texas and need to drive back to N.C. sorta leaves a sour taste in your mouth. The cobbled together line below was cheaper (and works better) than the stock piece.

SMSP

Well I always try to use AeroQuip or you can go to a local hydraulic hose dealer and have them make you up lines to length.

Oh, don't tell Warren or his insurance company that stock brake lines are OK for the track. If they were he'd still own an EVO.

ITRacer121

I like the BLING of them and they have worked good on my power steering removal
But I agree they are kind a pain to work with and deffinately way expensive! I just dont see how soem people spend all that money on lines and fittings? then again I dont see how people are able to buy high dollar exotics and then drop another 100k in mods?

Willard

There is an article in the June 05 issue of SportsCar about automotive plumbing... Pascal's law is even mentioned.

KOALA YUMMIES

Descartesfool, I was recently thinking over the same thing. I too really think that the SS lines and aluminum fittings are a bit much on a street car, heck even on cars that see tons of track use. Even on the B18C motors that have the oil cooler at the filter, those rubber lines must see some good pressure, and like others have said the fuel lines see possibly up to the high 40s in psi on those rubber hoses (granted they are specifically fuel line hose). Along with the transmission coolers on the auto trans cars, they almost always use rubber hoses for those, and heat is the #1 killer of automatic transmissions, so those hoses see quite a bit of abuse too.

I'd like to know how many people on here are running an external multi-row oil cooler and using rubber hoses, if any?

Also, what about the rumors I've heard (dealing mostly with SS brake lines) about sand and whatnot working their way through the metal sleeve of the line and damaging the rubber hose underneath? Is there any truth to that? Not to mention the length that SS brake lines last for example isnt that long (there was a very good thread about this with a report too).

Knestis

I've used barbed, press-on hose fittings for oil coolers and remote filters on several race cars and never had a problem - and if I did, the raw materials and fittings were cheap enough that we could actually have spares on hand. The blue rubber lines were blingin' enough for me. There are variations in brands, in terms of inside diameters, bend radii and the like so it's probably worth shopping around.

K

rustyhatch

get your line made at the local hydraulic shop. it wont be that much and their stuff will hold 1500 psi.

descartesfool

The high pressure lines on your Honda have crimped fittings over the rubber hose that screw on to where they are going with a banjo fitting such as fuel lines, and they never seem to fail that I know of. They are also lighter weight than the SS lines, and won't abrade stuff like the SS lines.

As for barbed fittings, if they were a good choice, Honda would use them and they don't, so I assume that straight pipe with beaded lip on the end and small spring clamp is the choice because it is fast, cheap, easy to remove and obviously totally reliable for the lower pressure stuff. I just wonder why the aftermarket hasn't picked up on the fact that what works for Honda for millions of road miles and for commercial truck fleets for billions of miles must be good.

JoelG

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by descartesfool &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">TI just wonder why the aftermarket hasn't picked up on the fact that what works for Honda for millions of road miles and for commercial truck fleets for billions of miles must be good.</TD></TR></TABLE>

lacks bling

Stinkycheezmonky

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SMSP &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Oh, don't tell Warren or his insurance company that stock brake lines are OK for the track. If they were he'd still own an EVO.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Muh? Did I miss a good story somewhere?

Splat

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by KOALA YUMMIES &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">with the transmission coolers on the auto trans cars, they almost always use rubber hoses for those, and heat is the #1 killer of automatic transmissions, so those hoses see quite a bit of abuse too. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Data point - the trans coolers on my 240's use bent-metal hard lines. Which failed on both cars within a few months of each other from wear at a bracket. At least rubber or braided lines would have been easier to replace

mos

Same as I've found to be true, this pdf states how inexpensive industrial 37 degree fitting are interchangable with fancy AN fittings:

http://www.parker.com/tfd/fitt...S.pdf

...unless its an airplane or helicopter, then you gotta stick with the fancy stuff.

AKADriver

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SMSP &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Oh, don't tell Warren or his insurance company that stock brake lines are OK for the track. If they were he'd still own an EVO.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Sounds like a manufacturing defect. I ran original, 150,000 mile rubber brake lines from 1990 in my 240SXs. Carefully inspecting them for cracks and wear, of course... and finding none.

From everything I've seen, at least the hose part of rubber brake lines is much more durable than braided stainless. The exact property of rubber that drives people to get rid of them - elasticity - is what allows them to last. The Teflon hose inside a "stainless" line is comparatively rigid and fragile, which is why they're jacketed in stainless steel to begin with.

The fittings might be superior, though if you buy "DOT approved" stainless lines you're getting the same type of crimped fittings as OEM!