boxedfox

As a rainy day exercise, I went back and calculated out how much it would cost to build a SCCA ITS racecar like mine, using the same exact parts at today's prices. The total for parts bill came out to $16,333. Excluding the cost of specialized professional help for things like engine work (what little you're allowed to do in IT), roll cage installation, dyno tune, and corner weighting.

On one hand 16k sounds like a fair bit of money. On the other hand, if I look at all of the mechanical skills I picked up and the long list of friends and motorsport connections I made while building and developing the car, this seems like the best thing I've ever done.

Details and the full build sheet are here, for reference:
https://studiovrm.net/post/building-...-7-build-sheet

killerpenguin21

whats even worse is the money needed to convert an ITS car to be competitive in H2...

i prefer not to look back at the total cost tho LOL. However buying my car as race ready will probably lower my overall cost around $10k.

sjg88

how much would you say the 'hidden costs' were??

you know..the trips back and forth for little parts here and there..and im sure there were other misc parts that needed to be purchased to tighten everything up

boxedfox

I estimate that I have about $3500 in restoration costs that aren't represented in that build sheet. That was entirely my fault though. I started with the wrong trim level (4WS) and the car was not in good shape when I bought it. I replaced almost all of the easily replaceable suspension and steering parts and had to do a fair bit of body repair including a full replacement of the left rear corner. Then I had to spend money to dump the 4WS system because it was too much of a weight penalty and didn't work at track speeds. If I did the same thing you did and started with a gently used 2WS Si from below the Mason Dixon line, I would have gotten away with spending much, much less.

The other unlisted costs were from me doing trial and error with parts (probably in the neighborhood of $4000 or so, some of which I recouped), damaging the car by doing dumb things (e.g. blowing a motor at Summit, tapping the tyre wall at Lime Rock Park, and hitting a fellow competitor at NJMP), consumables that were spent during events (not sure where to start calculating that one), and various automotive specialty tools that I bought to support things (like the tyre changer and all of the alignment tools. Probably another $5000 invested there). That's primarily because I did a lot of experimental work while developing the car. If I was more conservative or started with a build sheet like the one in the link above, I would have gotten away with spending much, much less.

I also have about $16,000 in DE, Time Trial, and Race entry fees across the last 8 seasons. But truth be told, I would have done that anyway, regardless of what car I had. : )

boxedfox

Haha yeah, the Honda Challenge gives you a lot of freedom in how you can spend your money. Starting with a race ready car was a smart move on your part. I can only imagine what it'd cost to scratch build a fast Honda Challenge 2 car nowadays. I remember some of the front running H2 cars were $20k builds back in 2012, and they've only gotten faster since then.

killerpenguin21

eh H2 is still limited and wouldn't be overly expensive to build from scratch. Im not running any fancy parts, you can get away with koni/gc's and stuff like that. really helps that i bough a caged car with a freshly built motor for 7500 though of course. but i had to sort the spring rates and valving, add rear sway, and find another 25whp.

ross2004

boxedfox

Yes that's correct. Minimum 2555 lbs with driver. I think it clocked in at 2567 lbs with a 155 lb driver and a few gallons of gas in the tank at the end of last year.

Getting the car there was pretty tough since the rules for Improved Touring prohibit the use of non-OEM body panels or swiss cheesing support structures for weight reduction. I ended up doing things like skeletonizing the seat adapter base and choosing the lightest muffler available to get the number as low as possible. That said, it is possible to go lighter with a few sacrifices, like lopping off all of the exhaust piping behind the driver's seat and putting in a 90 degree bend so it points at the ground directly beneath the car (loud but legal, probably worth 15 lbs). Or by going to dedicated aluminum-body race dampers instead of the steel bodied ones that are on the car now (expensive but legal, probably worth 10 lbs).

miamirice

Feriohhh

Great post. I have nearly an identical spreadsheet of costs in my 97 LX and the cost is just about exactly what yours is.

Josh R.

I'm surprised by this. 300 lbs came out of my Integra EASY. Too easy, in fact. I'm teetering right at the minimum (2,590). I still have carpet, full door panels, center console, radio (no speakers) and a bunch of other things I could remove or make lighter. I think I could get the car under 2,400 without a whole lot of work.

My car isn't yet full IT, but I did a quick tally and I have very conservatively $9000 in it in 2.5 years. Keep in mind I got the car for $2000 with headers, CAI, most of the exhaust, GC/Konis, camber kits, Momo steering wheel and other stuff. I've spent the most amount of money on wheels; 4 sets = ~$1750. Next most expensive would be the diff/clutch/flywheel at ~$1600. Even as I type this, I'm thinking of some things I forgot and that will be doing soon (rebuilding Konis). Also, I didn't include any consumables (tires, brakes, etc), personal safety gear (helmet, suit, arm restraints) OR the car trailer. It could easily be in the mid-teens. And, pray to God my wife never sees this, but if you add in all the entry fees and travel...I'm probably in the low-20's. And that's just with this car.

boxedfox

Thanks for the words of encouragement (and for making me feel better in a way). Miamirice, If I could edit the thread title, I'd take your suggestion and add "Once" to the title, because in more ways than one, would be the sensible thing to do. Unfortunately I'm looking at doing the complete opposite of what's sensible and contemplating upgrading the car for SCCA Super Touring Under. We'll see how the field looks this season before I make that dumb decision.

And yes, getting to ITS minimum weight is pretty tough in a Prelude. The weight of the shell and body panels is surprisingly high compared to other Hondas of that vintage. The long nose and sheer size of the exterior might have to do with it. I didn't realize it until one of my crew pointed it out, but it turns out that the 4th and 5th gen Preludes are amongst the widest and longest cars in ITS. Still, considering the car started at 2860 with no driver and about a gallon of gas, that's a net weight reduction of about 450 lbs including the weight of a relatively robust 6 point roll cage. I'm reasonably happy with that for now.

miamirice

killerpenguin21

my integra is at 2580ish with full tank and me in it (so about 2330ish no driver), my class minimum weight is 2400. Unfortunately i have a very heavy cage since its an autopower that was welded in and beefed up, but otherwise im running out of things to cut weight. im not convinced i can get to 2400 (~2150 no driver, im not small). i really need a lightweight hood/hatch but the company that made fiberglass pieces went out of business last year.


i also have a VERY understanding girlfriend that supports this stupid hobby lol (at least i think she does?)

boxedfox

I have no idea how I would do, but the 4th gen Prelude chassis seems to be very competitive in STU at the moment. The last two runoffs were actually won in Preludes (Max Gee in 2017, Joe Moser in 2016). Joe Moser has been winning in EP with the same car for years. They're estimated to be making something in the 230-250 whp range with built H22, and are likely to be close to their adjusted STU min weight of 2247 lbs (2365 lbs for a 2150cc motor and a 5% reduction for FWD). They also get to run 17x8 wheels and 245 width tyres with a moderate length splitter and a wing that's big enough to actually do something. I'm estimating that 10-12k of hard parts would get me from where I am into the bottom midpack of STU, while 16-20k of hardware would get me closer to the front at the Majors. Excluding the setup time and driver coaching I'd need to make the most of a car like that.

Lap time wise, I'm looking at a big gap ahead too. The STU lap record at NJMP Lightning is a 1:12.6, the fastest I've ever gone around there in this car is 1:17 something. On NJMP Lightning the STU record is a 1:27, and I could probably do a 1:33 on a good day.

STU is a displacement-weight class, so with a K20 I think you'd be allowed to run at 2132 lbs (2200 lb for a 2000cc motor + 2% penalty for K20 - 5% reduction for FWD). You're right about having to build the motor for another 20-30 hp. The 2nd place car in 2016 was a Lotus Exige prepared by Krugspeed. It'll be difficult to win a 30 minute race against something like that without a distinct power advantage.

Is your EG built for wheel to wheel, or is it more of a DE/TT car?

boxedfox

My cage is a beefed up Autopower too. Do you have NASCAR bars on both sides? When Entropy Racing re-did the front half of my cage, they told me that they got about 75 lbs of material out of each door when they gutted them for my door bars. That helped quite a bit.

If you are up for modifying your cage a bit, another common move in IT is to run the dash bar of the roll cage right up against the bottom of the dash pad, so close that it was impossible to bolt it back on because the metal reinforcements under the pad would hit the bar. Because roll cage routing takes priority over other materials, these clever builders would use this as an excuse to remove almost all of the metal from underneath the dash pad then zip tie it to the dash bar. Not sure about the Integra, but the metal backing plate is pretty heavy on some cars. One of my friends took 40 lbs out of a GC chassis Impreza this way.

I suspect that you wouldn't need to go that far though. I was actually in a very similar situation with my car about five years ago. I had it down to 2680 with driver and thought I had reached the limit of what I could do (that was with the NASCAR bars). I ended up going through every bit of the car that I could to try to cut down small increments of weight.

I found something like 30 lbs in the exhaust alone by going to a different header, replacing the high flow cat with a big empty resonance chamber, and replacing the rear muffler with a Burns Stainless unit. ABS removal yielded another 25 lbs (90's Honda ABS modules were surprisingly heavy), power steering removal was another 30 lbs (inexplicably weighty spacer bracket behind the power steering pump), and doing things like taking material out of my wedge engineering seat bracket until it was basically a set of side mount brackets with feet welded onto them (3 lbs there. They really overbuild their seat brackets). I even replaced the side mount bracket with Bride units because they were smaller than the ones I had (3 lbs, even though they were both steel). Between a few more small items like that and dumping the 4WS rear suspension, I was able to get it down to where it is now. With all of the exercise I got from working on the car, I also lost 10 lbs. So that helped a bit too.

My suspicion is that you could make up a good chunk of that weight if you look at similar spots. Then maybe you could splurge for one of the slightly pricier CF hoods and have the weight down low enough to keep the stock rear hatch.

miamirice

miamirice

joel n

I agree on the once part lol. We bought a dog of a EK coupe. Not sure what we have spent on it from start to finish. Original build was around 10K. lots of mistakes. Cheap front upper arms that failed with 1 offtrack, 1 LS motor that never even made it to the track, replaced a entire drivers floor due to rust. gas tank due to rust, all brake and fuel lines and swapped to a EG manual front sub-frame. Blew the B16 up at the end of the first year. lol Guessing 13K CAN now. and still not done. Love the car. I know what we have, didn't half-*** a bunch of it safety wise. The other car we have had a super shady cage with butt welded pipes and driver door bars that didn't fully weld onto the main. Wiring from hell. We can actually say it was cheaper for us the build the civic then what is invested into buying and rebuilding the other car. But i have access to all the cage building gear.

But seeing racecars for sale state-side for 6500ish. Oh yeah. Next time will be a log booked running and racing car. lol

ross2004

I'm anxious to weigh my 4th gen ChumpCar build. There's no minimum weight, it's simply a matter of how much effort (and money) you want to put in. I've gotten all of the low hanging fruit, but I'd wager there's another fairly easy 50# that could come out with the plasma cutter.

boxedfox

Ah. Sucks that you have such a nice wheel to wheel car that you can't really use. It looks like most traditional racing classes are suffering right now. The Northeast / Mid-Atlantic regions probably have some of the strongest HC and IT fields in the country at the moment, but even then we're talking 8-15 cars per class on a good day. People seem to be moving to "run what you've brung" bracket series like AER or are joining the super touring / super unlimited classes where you can basically do whatever you want to your car.

Personally I'm not sure how I feel about the trend. On one hand it's great fun to watch and it's really easy for a new racer to join in whatever car they can afford. At the same time it's potentially really expensive if you want to have fun at the pointy end of the field.

boxedfox

If you wouldn't mind sharing, let us know what you decide to cut out and what the results are. Looking for ideas for the possible STU build.

sjg88

so..could a really taleneted driver take a medicore car and run up front or near the top of the middle?

miamirice

boxedfox

miamirice's assessment is pretty accurate. In a national race, it's very, very tough to be competitive in a mediocre car. In a regional setting, a fast driver can spring some surprises. I've seen it before and they tend to follow the same pattern. Fast drivers tend to qualify where you would expect their car to be and work their way forwards by being consistently fast and capitalizing on the mistakes of others.

Here's a recent example:

2017 SCCA Majors at NJMP - STU #33 Honda Civic Si

The driver, Greg Amy, is a very fast, very experienced racer from the Northeast region. His Civic, however, is nowhere near full SCCA Super Touring prep. In fact I think it's actually an Improved Touring R (ITR) car with some ballast taken out of it. By virtue of engine power alone, he should be several seconds slower than a front running STU car.

Now in this race, the top STU qualifier is a bright yellow Exige. The gap in performance potential between the two cars is so big that you can't even see the Lotus by the end of the first lap. Keep watching though and you'll see Greg patiently making calculated passes on the cars ahead while keeping his lap times as close to his qualifying times as humanly possible. Right around the 16:40 mark, he's worked his way all the way to the lead pack. A few seconds later the driver in the Lotus goes off on the entrance to the section known as the Octopus, and Greg gets enough of a run on him to nose ahead under braking into Turn 1.

Then come the lapped cars. Greg positions and asserts himself with clean passes to get past them without losing much time. If you look in the rear view camera, you'll see that his competitors can't pull off the same moves and they end up losing gobs of time in all the wrong places. Two laps later the Exige is so far behind that you can't even see it the rear view camera. By the time they took the checker, he was first in STU by a big margin.

There are some caveats though. Even though I suspect that his car is underprepared for STU, I do happen to know that it's very well sorted as a racecar. The motor is pretty healthy, it's well balanced through pretty much any type of corner, and it stops exceedingly well. In ITR trim, he would probably demolish the field.

So I guess the short answer is "yes, it's possible. But not without a lot of hard work and a bit of good luck."