rkcarguy

Looking to get an ST class EG Civic together.
I'm trying to get a better understanding of the car/engine relationship for this class. If I want to run an EG Civic with a SOHC VTEC, do I have to buy an EX or SI model car, or can I swap a DX/VX/LX/CX model instead?
Obviously if this applies the non-vtec models would be lighter, but would be underdogs on power because the best swap on the same classification line would be the
D15B7 imo.
2nd, flywheel weights varied by model. So I'm assuming you can't take the D15B7 and swap over the lightest stock VX or CX flywheel, with it would have to come the VX or CX engine

Can anyone confirm?

TunerN00b

1) I think you mean ST class, and not STS which is for 2 seaters.
2) Engine swaps are not allowed in ST classes.
3) Power isn't an issue in ST, because if you want to win you want a spec 89 Civic Si, and those are gutless. Weight > power in this class.

solo-x

The lightest EF 89 Civic Si I know of in ST weighs ~1960lbs. The lightest EG civic that has competed in ST was mine, at 2095lbs. If I had finished doing all the things left to take weight out of the car, 2050lbs was definitely possible.

The top 89's make roughly 117whp. That's with money Hytech headers, ECU tuning, full tilt rebuilds, etc. My EG made 125whp on a stock computer with a street header. Stock bore, stock deck height, etc. Another 5whp was a mere $2k+ away with ECU tuning, shaving the head to the limit (.008), .010 overbore, parts bin balancing, Hytech header, full 2.5" exhaust, etc. The shortcoming was the torque number. Despite having more whp, the peak torque value of the z6 is 5-8lbft short. The penalty for having to spin a p/s pump.

At any rate, an EG is definitely competitive for the class. You really want an Si. 93 is the best year (no Si in 92, 94-95 have pass. side airbags).

SlapSmak

FYI, there was a SI in 92, I owned one (electron blue) my wife (then girlfriend) called it the smurf mobile, traded in my 90EF to buy it. There are 4 on autotrader right now.

rkcarguy

I did a bunch of searches for ST auto-x results, and several posts confirmed your info, early EF and EG Si's taking home the top 3 spots in many occasions, with a Subaru tossed in here and there.
If my track car shell goes I'm going to start looking for an EG chassis Si, I have everything I need for it, but don't have any EF stuff so I'm going to stay away from those.
Last question, although not applicable to my case because I think all the Si's were 5sp...Is an auto-manual conversion legal or do you have to start with a 5sp car?

dirty19

iTrader: (1)

did anyone search to see if this was done?

CivicSiRacer

My 91 Civic Si in almost full autocross trim was at 2080lbs. Had a heavier Sparco Sport seat, stock passenger seat, heavier exhaust, and full stereo system (hey I have to have my tunes).

My 93 Civic Si which isn't even 1/2 way done is at 2210lbs. Only have World Sport exhaust, AEM intake.

Definitely cannot swap engines in ST (4 seaters)/STS (2 seaters).

rkcarguy

Wanted to provide more info on the situation.
I have a complete stock D16Z6 5sp swap with just over 100K miles on it. I have socketed the computer, and also have on the shelf a header, short ram intake, Tein coilovers, braided stainless brake lines, 19mm rear sway bar, shift linkage, axles, and camber kit front and rear.(all for EG). I also have a clutch pedal clutch master clutch slave lines and brackets.
I was reading the 2009 Solo rules and it's stated in the stock class(base rules that ST adds additional allowed mods to), that:

"Option package conversions may be performed between specific vehicles of a make and model, but only between configurations from within a particular model year. Such conversions must be totally complete and the resultant car must meet all requirements of this section."

In the ST section: Engine mounts may be replaced provided the attach to the factory locations with no modifications. Volume of metal may not increase in relation to the volume of metal found in the stock mount.

What I'm seeing in this is that I *might* be allowed to install my swap into an EX automatic, changing everything over, and make a custom mount to line up the 5sp with the automatic frame bracket. Why bother you ask? I already have all the stuff. I have welders and grinders, and I work at a fab shop. A nice condition automatic EX can be had for about $1500-2000, a 5sp version will be $2800+ in our area, and for that it will be beat.
I am gaining no advantage by using the automatic car except saving some bucks...This will be a one day job for me, not a big deal.
I don't want to compete and have someone say "your car is "swapped" and get bumped to mod.
I've done a pretty extensive search and didn't really find any results regarding the legality of an auto-to-5sp conversion.

CivicSiRacer

If you are putting the D16Z from an EG Si into an EX that is the motor that comes stock in the EX 1993-1995.
I thought you were thinking like a B series, H series or K series into an EG.
That rule was written because someone decided to put a D16A motor (from a 1989-1991 Civic Si) into a 1988 Civic DX. Since everything was basically the same lines for stock class. Except the DX didn't have sunroof and was 100lbs lighter or so.

So no you cannot put the D16Z motor into any other model except the EX or the Si. Unless of course (for example) you buy a CX and swap EVERYTHING over from an Si to make the CX an Si in and out.

rkcarguy

And if your CX didn't have a sunroof, better get an Si roof skin lol.

I will be getting an EX coupe most likely, just want to assure I'm not going to get bumped to mod for the A/T to M/T conversion of the car.
Unfortunately I've seen stupider rules that really limited people from competing with whats readily availaible as far as car/model.
Honda Challenge allows body swaps like you mentioned above with the SI drivetrain allowed in the DX model...but they have a minimum weight for the car. So the Si swapped DX driver gets 100#s of ballast, but he can race and be legal.
Not so in ITA and ST so it seems...

JBrettHowell

Plus door panels, cluster, rear seats, rear window wiper and washer and wiper stalk, etc.

The G-Man

Guys guys, remember all this extreme nit-pickyness only applies to you if you really want to compete at the national level. If you just want to have some fun at regional events, you can get your mods waived.

90_EX_Civic

this is true.

climb_on

i started autoxing a gsr integra 2 years ago in st (sts) the car was pretty prepped for the class (koni/gc, rear sway, azenis(still competive at that time), seats, etc) the only thing i could probably still have done was getting rid of ac to save weight.

anyways moral of the story is that the car was pretty competitive at local level in both clubs i competed in. at any given day i would win or barely be beat in the class and would always finished well in pax.

now that i have a prepped 91 si civic, its a whole new game. the lack of power really forces you to learn to take the best line and carry speed through turns. the car feels so nimble and responsive you can really push it while staying in control.

i think the civic once i learn to drive it better will be much more competitive but now im getting beat by the same guys i was keeping up with in my integra. so it goes to show that mastering a car and driver skills pay such a strong roll in the class and autox in general.

if your sure that st is the class for you, history repeats it self and a ef si is the way to go specially a 89. altough i would be pretty happy with a earlier eg si.

best of luck

CivicSiRacer

When I went from my EM1 Si to my EF Si it was like night and day. Actually back in 2002'ish I was able to drive Chris Shenefield's National winning STS EF Si at a local event. I ran something like a 38.xxx in my EM1. He let me drive couple times on course in his EF and my 1st time was a 36.xxx. This was on a 30 second course. I couldn't believe how fast and nimble it was plus how much speed you can keep in corners.

rkcarguy

I would like to run an Si, I've racked up my one and only fast time of the day(wet) in a nearly stock EF DX hatchback. In the wet it was awesome, rotated slightly off throttle and was just kissing the rev limiter thru the slalom. I was actually running a pretty slow class, so of course I got protested and tech'd. Everyone gathered around to see the hood pop, "wow look a stock dual point D15B2 with 190K miles". While they had the hood up I added another quart of oil lol.
An 89 Si just came up for sale on CL for $2300, already with IHE but with huge bling rims on it. As tempting as it is I just don't have any parts for these. As I used to own a JDM engine/front clip importing business, the EG stuff is plentiful but EF stuff dried up along time ago. I have so many EG parts lying around all I need is a good shell with interior and I'm set. To top it off, saving 100#'s by car choice is a moot point as I am around 260#'s, and is the same reason I never got into the shifter cart scene.

I have my eye on a couple of EG EX coupes that are under $2k.
I am continuing to look for EG Si's but they are few and far between, and approx $1k more than an EX for a "previously enjoyed" vehicle.
Coupe's are pretty fat, but I can remove the A/C, add I/H/E, and some underdrive pulleys and see ~100#'s loss. Relocating/Re-sizing the battery to the trunk will also help alot.

Are the Azenis RT-615's still the tire to have for ST?
Search and review suggests so, but looking for opinions. We have pretty tight short courses so tires that are sticky out of the start box are key. Typically we see 70-100 second times depending where we run. Time is getting short, so next week I need to get tires ordered up and mounted.
Wanting to make the July 11th event....

90_EX_Civic

what parts do you have? a lot of parts can be interchanged from the eg to the ef. truth be said some of it might need modding, but you did say you were looking at relocating the battery anyways, so that in one part would make your intake universal (battery won't be in the way). the after market header for a eg will fit on a ef. exhaust, you're going to have to cutom the muffler. even the suspension is interchangable. will the shocks/coilovers are. sway bars, you're probably going to need custom end links for it to work.

for the tire choice though, the 615 is out dated. it's a toss between the RE-11, star spec, and XS.

CivicSiRacer

For local events Azenis are fine. But for larger more competitve regions you will need the RE-11s, XS or the Toys.

rkcarguy

^^I have a set of Tein coilovers, F/R ST swaybars, also 19mm mugen rear bar(oem from jdm 25th anniversary Civic EG), a very strong 1995 Z6 swap all done up with header 9mm plug wires, chipped ecu, and fresh stage 2 clutch. Too bad the aluminum flywheel will have to come off
SS braided brake lines, JDM headlights, front lip...
The Si sold already...tomorrow it's down to a 94 EX Coupe or a 92 EX sedan. Sedan is damn clean but bone stock, Coupe already has intake exhaust rims sport springs and alarm, but is in primer. The A/C is dead on the coupe. I have to get something tomorrow because we are a one car family now and it sucks, plus this weekend is our 4th event which I obviously will not make, and only 2 left after that.
What do you guys think? Curb weight is 2480 on the sedan 2443 on the coupe. Each one can lose around 100#'s, maybe more if I go thru the rule book and start looking for any and all gains to be had. The sedan would be a better daily for us and something is just cool about throwing around a 4dr, but I'm really torn and also have zero seat time driving the crap out of a coupe. The eg sedan I have done more than I'd wish to share in it....
Concerning the tires.we have pretty short courses. Usually 1st and 2nd gear scenarios. R-compounds for the track never heat up to be useful, I'll need something sticky out of the start box. RA-1's have worked good in the past but aren't legal for ST...

I'm planning on sticking with the RT-615's unless someone advises of a better tire for the money..$470 mounted and balanced for 4x 205-50-15's at discount.

90_EX_Civic

dude, get the 4door, then you can be like me,





this is the case in point that seat time is everything.

there aren't to many autocross' that see third gear. unless you have really short gears, low rpm, or a lot of power, you shouldn't see third gear. oh, also have to add how the course designer designed the course too.

my advice on tire would be the kumho Ecsta XS. it's a newer and up to date tire, and it's only a few bucks more.

CivicSiRacer

You ran CSP at Finger Lakes? You nut head. I did hear about your lawn mowing abilities

rkcarguy

I got a red EX coupe yesterday. Came without A/C so I'm already set there. Spent the rest of the weekend cleaning it up and adding my bolt ons. The engine smokes a little and isn't that strong, so the fresher Z6 is going in.

This years courses have been pretty tight. FTD has gone to the bugeye sprites/mg midgets and a Mazda 323 GTX so far this year. In previous years we had been able to get a nearby town to close off the roads of an industrial park and we had our auto-x there. It was a blast needless to say, top of 3rd with 4.88's in my other car...
I'll research the Ecsta XS and have a look at pricing/availaibility...
Thanks for all the help.

rkcarguy

Crap discount is out of the Ecsta XS in all 3 warehouses
Some have complained that they don't grip when cold. It's usually 50-60 degrees here unless we are lucky. We don't get to go out run after run, so you're always out on cold tires. Kinda stupid..once the timer malfunctioned when I was runnning R compounds, they ran me up to the front of the line and right out again...like 3 seconds faster than my best run lol.
I'll continue to do some research and see how the Azenis do in colder temps.
The 205-50-15's are 19#'s each for the XS and 21.1 for the Azenis, definately a more porky tire. I almost wonder if I would be better off getting some 14" RT615's in the 195-60-14 size for a smaller diameter and lighter tire?

90_EX_Civic

unless i read it wrong, a street prepared 88-91 civic falls into C street prepared (damn rims). and yeah, lawn mowing.... if i hadn't snapped my wheel stud the week before at park city, i would have had some seat time with the setup (had dropped it) and found out that the rear would snap oversteer on me over gaps.

oh well , but it looks like i might be running ST this comming weekend at park city. might

90_EX_Civic

don't think you'll have that much of a problem. the ST guys that ran up in finger lakes had to run in that type of weather, and the tires looked like they held up, and were still fast.