Crosser

Uh... I don't always agree with this, consider Bob Tunnel and his M3. It was classed in CSP and competed well. Actually in the last few events he has run, now in BSP, he is faster than CSP. Now before I get flamed, I know this is not exactly comparing Apples to Apples. And as I stated in my earlier post, I agree that the Type R should be in DSP.

I think it would be interesting match. I really think the GSR has a good shot at the Type R in DSP becasue of its ability to run the smaller 13" 3-peice wheels. 225/45 -13 Hoosiers. This gives a great boost for the GSR in the gearing dept. allowing the car to be in the VTEC power much more. The Type R, with the bigger brakes, can not fit these size wheels. Now, I know wheels are not the end all be all. But I for one would love to see the battles. And yes, I am convinced they can easily beat the Fiats if done right. It just takes money and testing.

EC

Crosser

I agree to a point with RacerMike. I think that the Fiat days at the top are numbered. And I DO believe they belong in DSP, not CSP. The reason they are wooping up right now is development time. The few Fiats, and there are only really a handfull that are winning nationally right now, have been in develpment over the past 10+ years to get to where they are. With the new cars in DSP, there are alot of cars that have great potential to beat the Fiats, but almost none have been developed enough to do so. Only a rare few people can take a car like a GSR and in a season or two turn in into a Top DSP car. It takes a lot of time and money to figure out what the best combonation is. And that combo is usually changing. Guy Ankeny (SP?) did in in 1997 when he built a CSP Miata to show they could win Nationally in CSP. He also spent over $25,000 in addition to the price of the car to do it as well. And he is a top chassis man. The reality is if the car is still a street legal car racing in Street Prepared class, it is probably not going to be nationally competitive. Especially the top setups for a CSP/DSP car. You are just not going to be competitive against trailer queens that are at about there minimum weight for class.

I think the RacerMike has a real good start on DSP with his GSR, but he has a long way to go with reducing weight in the car, and getting more power out of it. I am very interested in his project and have enjoyed helping him with it. I think he is on the right track and that is what matters.



[Modified by Crosser, 3:49 PM 6/6/2001]

slowSER

Yup, soon every DSP guy is gonna be whinin' "My car isn't as fast as a Neon!" I'll go one step further than RacerMike: I guarantee a Fiat won't win DSP at Nationals.

Hey RacerMike, you gonna run DSP at the Peru National Tour? I think I may switch over from FS since my co-driver is considering running an Oldsmobile (!) in STS. We can sit in grid with the AC cranked with the heat beating off the Grissom Air Force Base tarmac and laugh at how much Hoelscher is sweating!

slowSER

[Modified by slowSER, 1:09 PM 6/7/2001]

slowSER

Stupid triple post ...


[Modified by slowSER, 1:09 PM 6/7/2001]

GSRMatt

The 99-00 Civic Si was listed in a FasTrack about two issues ago for member comment to move it from CSP. I doubt there will be any dissents, so it will likely be in DSP next season.

I do think the ITR belongs in DSP, but that does mean the GSR drivers are in trouble. Even if its listed on the same line that means a bunch of money for ITR parts, and the chassis stiffness (and more importantly weight) cannot be duplicated.

Todd00

I think it would be interesting match. I really think the GSR has a good shot at the Type R in DSP becasue of its ability to run the smaller 13" 3-peice wheels. 225/45 -13 Hoosiers. This gives a great boost for the GSR in the gearing dept. allowing the car to be in the VTEC power much more. The Type R, with the bigger brakes, can not fit these size wheels. Now, I know wheels are not the end all be all. But I for one would love to see the battles. And yes, I am convinced they can easily beat the Fiats if done right. It just takes money and testing.



Good point about the wheels and tires; I never even thought of that. I think I'd rather have the superlight 13" 225/45 tires than bigger brakes, although good brakes are very nice.

I have to run a 15x7 with 225/50's on them. This = weight and issues with fender clearance.

madhatter

Oh, that's funny.
I ran against him this past Sunday, without his top. It was RAINING. Torrential, couldn't see 20 ft. raining. I hope that he has drain plugs in the bottom of that thing, or he is still probably bailing out water.
Made me feel slightly better about coming in 2nd.

Todd00

Bring this back to the top...

FYI--My email has been mentioned in the July edition of "Sports Car" in the Fastrack News section. So, for those of you who would like to see something like this happen, perhaps now is the time to send an email off to the SCCA.

seb@scca.org

Also, I know Fastrack is posted somewhere on the net in .pdf format--anyone know where so that I can link to it?

Pork Chop

http://www.scca.org/news/fastrack/01-07.pdf

GSRMatt

The SportsCar I got today has all the Civic SP moves (ITR to DSP, Civics to DSP, EX to FSP) listed as not recommended.

Todd00

Yeah, same one. It was under not recommended. At least maybe someone else will see it and think it's a good idea.

The other suggestion was kind of dumb though--why would all civics move from CSP to DSP.

fsp31

>>Some nobody (sorry Shawn, just paraphrasing what Goeke said ) in a stock Type R is 1.1 seconds off the fastest DSP car on the planet, and that should be taken with a grain of salt? <<

I think most time comparisons in reference to Meridian are invalid because weather played a big role. At the Ft. Worth NT, there were a few ITR's in GS, but none of the top drivers, if I recall. Also, a well prepped BMW won DSP at the Ft. Worth NT. IMO, the 2000 nationals are the best point of reference we've had recently to truly compare the potential of different cars in different classes. The weather cooperated and all the fast guys were there.

This is a little OT but...
Somebody considers a SM developed ESP Camaro or AWD Talon to be superior to a Honda under the rules. I disagree. I think there were more developed ESP type cars out there ready to step into SM. How many good hybrid Hondas have we even seen in the class yet? Almost none. And certainly no "hot shoes" to compare to Rafferty, Tunnel, or Strano have shown up in a SM prepped Honda. IMO, a well prepped CSP Civic with an extra 50 HP could be formidable indeed, in the right hands.

Crosser

Actually, 2000 nationals are NOT a good reference. There was a course change mid way through the run groups. An area turn was deemed unsafe. I know the course was different for DSP and other classes, so the you can't really use that as a reference.

I agree that I believe a well preped CSP Civic with a little extra power would be a hot ticket. I spoke with Stacey Despelder and he considered bringing his out to the Mich. Pro, but changed his mind. It is on his mind though. God help them if John Thomas found the right civic. hehehe.

EC


[Modified by Crosser, 11:58 AM 6/21/2001]

slowSER

GS and DSP ran during the same heat at Meridian, and the courses were completly dry for them both days.

Todd00

Yeah, but I have my theories about SM, but that's another thread

SM is trying to cater totally to the ESP type cars because Mr. "R Eater" Dennis Grant is trying to dictate the class. I'm waiting myself for a quick hybrid CSP car to step into the picture and start whooping some butt.

slowSER

Well, a quick hybrid DSP car seems to be doing that already. Neon + 2.4L Stratus engine = Turbo DSM/Supra killer.

Todd00

Yeah, I ran against that car in SM. I beat it, but again it seemed to have the slower of the two drivers in it So far though, the SM DSMs haven't given me too much a problem either. A ESP nat. champion Camaro though, has given me problems.

I want to see how I do against said Supra though. The Neon is fast for now, but I don't see it being fast in a few years. Too nose heavy IMO.

Brett@SoloRacer.com

Rafferty ran with us this past weekend here in Akron. The guy is amazing, and the car is pure beast. He was almost 3 seconds faster than me in my G Stock trim, and that was on a high 30 second course. He PAX'd 2nd, me 3rd. I dont see how a Type R could ever come close to that car.
http://www.autox.net/ax601.txt




[Modified by Tegsport Racing, 1:08 PM 6/21/2001]

Yellow Dragon

CSP ~ IMO the ITR is NOT a competitive CSP car. I mean it can be locally(my friend White Dragon consistently gets good times locally), but the bottom line is that a well prepared ITR for CSP is NOT a match for a well prepared CRX for CSP. I made the mistake of getting into CSP for a short time last season because I had an AEM CAI. I quickly removed it and now I'm back in GS.

SM ~ I think an ITR can be *somewhat* competitive, but you need some serious coin $$. Why would I spend so much $$ to set my car up for AutoX at that point?!

I'm all for moving the ITR to DSP...

OR

getting a petition to get the R into STS.

Either would work for me.

Todd00

Well--maybe yes, maybe no. Depending upon the course, the R might have a shot--a properly setup R. I'm getting faster every event and slowly but surely starting to distance myself from the Stock R's. An R with a JRSC, great suspension and great driver might have what it takes.

SM is going to get interesting in a few years.

fsp31

>>Actually, 2000 nationals are NOT a good reference. There was a course change mid way through the run groups. An area turn was deemed unsafe<<

Oops. Forgot about that. Thanks for clearing it up. In retrospect, I guess it's hard to use any single event for a point of reference. There are too many variables. Trends throughout a season (or seasons) are probably the best way to go. That said, I believe the ITR should be in DSP as well.

A very good SS RX-7 driver described his Pro-Solo experience with me when he went up against a 1607 lb CSP CRX. He said the CRX was right next to him all the way down the starting straight, then at the first turn it was "buh-bye" (the CRX left him in the dust). He was astounded at the acceleration the CRX had. The fact that CRX's can get SO light under CSP rules basically renders the ITR hopeless. Now there's also the Miatas and RX-3's which have made a strong comeback and are proving to be equally competitive with the CRX. CSP is a *tough* place to play.

CostaMesaCRXsi

>CSP is a *tough* place to play.

Sheesh...try running against Tom Berry and Dave Palmquist, not to mention their protege's Ken Motonishi and Chris Grivas. SoCal is TOUGH CSP-land. (oh, and BSt...Tom and Ken are running a miata this year)

I've been trying to get something done about the CRX in stock class...probably pointless but who knows.

Seems to me that the ITR is better off in stock than any other class. Even next year it looks like a winner.

If you want to win CSP, buy Tom Berry's old RX3. It's still for sale.

RacerMike

Well Mark Allen, who has Jackson support and Comptech support, hasn't been able to do it yet in his R, and he has lots of money to toss at it too!

Mike

Todd00

Yeah, how has Mark Allen been doing? I forgot about him. Any results yet with him running against the big boys?