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Advise for AutoX eh2 suspe
Ok so here goes I realize I’ve done this backwards.. But there’s not much I can do about it now. I’ve built a 93 eh2 hatchback before learning how to actually drive.. I guess I like to learn the hard way. I’m all over the place on a fairly curvy AutoX course that I only stay in second gear. Last weekend was my first event on this setup; Car Weight 2137lbs 360whp b series turbo PIC Coilovers 12k F (784lbs) 14k R (672lbs) Front camber -2 Front total Toe 1/8th Rear camber -1 0 Toe mfactory LSD Quafie qsr Rear ASR 24mm sway Rear BWR strut bar/control arms subframe brace lower tie Blox spherical trailing arm bushings Energy Suspension bushing all around No front sway Circuit hero strut and Benen subframe brace 205/50/15 Federal FZ201 27psi front 25psi rear It was 50 degrees and a little wet last weekend. I have another event this Sunday. The weather is supposed to be better +. I since put on a Integra 21mm front sway, I think this will help with the crazy oversteer issues I was having. Any help on tuning my suspension like front rear tire pressures, how much damping in the front and rear, front sway bar size? Any critiques or suggestions on my current setup? I understand my car is far superior to my knowledge of driving and most everything is driver error. I’m just trying to get some helpful tips. I felt like I was driving on ICE last weekend it wasn’t fun at all. I’m going to setup boost by gear here soon. I much preferred my all motor setup for AutoX but again I let my ego take the best of me and went turbo. Thank guys. |
Re: Advise for AutoX eh2 suspe
It's going to be very hard to get traction in a tight course with so much power. Maybe try a more hardcore LSD (OS Giken) and much wider front tires? Can you reduce the amount of boost? Good luck!
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Re: Advise for AutoX eh2 suspe
Originally Posted by KoRn_vIRuZ
(Post 51612189)
It's going to be very hard to get traction in a tight course with so much power. Maybe try a more hardcore LSD (OS Giken) and much wider front tires? Can you reduce the amount of boost? Good luck!
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Re: Advise for AutoX eh2 suspe
I'd turn the boost way down until you get more comfortable and not touch much else unless the car was really unstable. Was the car trying to spin constantly or were you just having problems putting power down?
Also I'm not too familiar with those tires but if it's wet and 50 degrees you're going to have trouble getting much heat into them. If they're bad until they're hot they're probably just going to be bad on a day like that. |
Re: Advise for AutoX eh2 suspe
Originally Posted by johnfitz46
(Post 51612467)
I'd turn the boost way down until you get more comfortable and not touch much else unless the car was really unstable. Was the car trying to spin constantly or were you just having problems putting power down?
Also I'm not too familiar with those tires but if it's wet and 50 degrees you're going to have trouble getting much heat into them. If they're bad until they're hot they're probably just going to be bad on a day like that. |
Re: Advise for AutoX eh2 suspe
Originally Posted by ShopSuey
(Post 51612652)
It literally felt like I was on ice. If I pushed it even a little I’d spin out. I just couldn’t go fast at all. I do think my stiff suspension mated with the Federal semi slicks and the weather played a huge roll. I don’t think it should’ve been that bad though. I’m hoping better weather along with the boost turned down and front sway bar on things feel a bit more stable. *edit I see you put the front sway bar on. good move. |
Re: Advise for AutoX eh2 suspe
Originally Posted by Feriohhh
(Post 51613530)
Obviously internet race driving here, but from reading your specs your car seems a over sprung both statically (springs) and dynamically (sway bar) for that skinny of a tire. Everything I see in your list seems like a perfect recipe for a lot of jittery oversteer. If you're stuck with those tires for a while, I would trying disconnecting that rear sway bar or hooking the front back up, airing the tires down a tiny bit (1-3 psi) more and working with your alignment shop to encourage a little more front push. By chance do you still have the stock springs/shocks you could put on? I'd bet you could pick up quite a bit of time by simply being in a more predictably sprung car on good tires. Suspension in autocross really should be upgraded slowly and methodically to correct certain characteristics you notice over many runs. It really shouldn't be done first (if at all) unless you know for sure you as a driver or your car need it. Another thing to mention that I see a lot of novices do is trying to bend your driving style to a sub-par setup. Don't do that. You'll only learn bad habits. Hit reset or pause on a few of your suspension upgrades and I bet you'll end up quicker.
*edit I see you put the front sway bar on. good move. Anyways thanks for the tips. |
Re: Advise for AutoX eh2 suspe
Originally Posted by ShopSuey
(Post 51613707)
Wow ok to some of that. Never stated I was a race car driver. I can say “yet another asshole on HT”. ;) I clearly stated I did everything backwards. Anyways thanks for the tips. |
Re: Advise for AutoX eh2 suspe
Let me preface with saying I don't have experience driving/setting up a modified Civic/Integra other than one event in a very dialed in ST EF. I do have a good amount of experience autocrossing a NC Miata and a Focus though. Where you are right now is a lot of variables that all seem to make the car rotate better (in general stiffer springs/shocks/sways/tire pressures in rear will make the car rotate more, softer will do the opposite, inverse is generally true for the front). I would think that you have enough spring given your car's weight that you would be fine with no sway bars anywhere. I'd start with disconnecting the rear sway and dropping some pressure out of the rear tires, less power if it's easy, and maybe softening the shocks in the back, and go from there. Long term adding a front bar and the rear will probably make sense but getting seat time without any will probably help you appreciate what's going on when you start adding things back in. I'm also a fan of taking away rather than adding when you've got big things you're trying to tune.
If it's like driving on ice, so stopping, turning, putting power down, are all challenged that's tires. They may have heat cycled out, are awful in the wet, or never had a chance to get up to temp. I think on a warmer day where your tires can get some heat you'll be in better shape. If you're still struggling at the next event see if you can get an instructor to take a run with you and maybe one driving your car and get some feedback. I kept having the rear come around after making an alignment change that on paper should've been good, but I was convinced had ruined the car's balance. An instructor went right seat on a run and pointed out I was jumping out of the throttle mid corner screwing with the weight transfer and I would spin. Next run when I was more careful getting out of the gas and the car was magically fixed. |
Re: Advise for AutoX eh2 suspe
Originally Posted by Feriohhh
(Post 51614268)
Sorry, I meant that I was internet race driving since I can only go on what I read and make suggestions without actually driving the car. I didn't mean to suggest you did anything wrong. I'm just happy to hear someone is getting into autocross and hope I can help in some way.
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Re: Advise for AutoX eh2 suspe
Originally Posted by johnfitz46
(Post 51614361)
Let me preface with saying I don't have experience driving/setting up a modified Civic/Integra other than one event in a very dialed in ST EF. I do have a good amount of experience autocrossing a NC Miata and a Focus though. Where you are right now is a lot of variables that all seem to make the car rotate better (in general stiffer springs/shocks/sways/tire pressures in rear will make the car rotate more, softer will do the opposite, inverse is generally true for the front). I would think that you have enough spring given your car's weight that you would be fine with no sway bars anywhere. I'd start with disconnecting the rear sway and dropping some pressure out of the rear tires, less power if it's easy, and maybe softening the shocks in the back, and go from there. Long term adding a front bar and the rear will probably make sense but getting seat time without any will probably help you appreciate what's going on when you start adding things back in. I'm also a fan of taking away rather than adding when you've got big things you're trying to tune.
If it's like driving on ice, so stopping, turning, putting power down, are all challenged that's tires. They may have heat cycled out, are awful in the wet, or never had a chance to get up to temp. I think on a warmer day where your tires can get some heat you'll be in better shape. If you're still struggling at the next event see if you can get an instructor to take a run with you and maybe one driving your car and get some feedback. I kept having the rear come around after making an alignment change that on paper should've been good, but I was convinced had ruined the car's balance. An instructor went right seat on a run and pointed out I was jumping out of the throttle mid corner screwing with the weight transfer and I would spin. Next run when I was more careful getting out of the gas and the car was magically fixed. I think I will disconnect the rear sway and see how it does this Sunday. The tires have never been properly heat cycled that was the first event on them and it was 48degrees and a bit wet. But I seemed to be the one with the most issues out on the course.. I’ll come back with an update after Sunday on how everything goes. Thank you for all the advise. I will have a seasoned driver ride with me as well;) |
Re: Advise for AutoX eh2 suspe
Well I ended up selling my 93 hatch today glad I was able to get what I wanted out of it. So this thread can be dead. I do have 2003 S2000 that I can start fresh on. https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...9119110b6.jpeg |
Re: Advise for AutoX eh2 suspe
this is my setup, i am always top 10 in raw out of 50 and usually 1st or 2nd in class.
93 civic coupe d16 10.5:1 comp 15g 16psi 10kg front 8 kg rear from an integra with truheart 1" lower struts 97 civic sedan front sway bar NO REAR SWAY BAR 225/45/15 bfg rivals 3degrees of camber in the front and 2 degrees of camber in the rear .28 degrees of total toe OUT and .20 degrees of total toe IN front 5" splitter with air dam and a rear functional wing. i use to run a 97 ek hatch till i lift oversteered it at an event doing 60 into a pole on to ur issue. you are experiencing LIFT OVERSTEER and it sucks. there are a number of ways to get around this. first stiffen the shit out of the front. the stiffer it is the more you will know when u understeer. onto real fixes set ur rear camber to a little bit more aim for 1.5 ish. you can also use the old trick of using window paint or something to mark the edge of ur tires to see how much ur rolling over at around 35psi. if ur rolling to much in the rear increase camber. to test my theory simply disconnect the rear sway bar, you will have a bunch more rear end traction. also next time you have it alighned get alittle bit more toe OUT in the front and TOE IN in the rear. any kind of toe in will help prevent the rear from rotating, rear toe out will CAUSE the rear end to rotate. as far as dempening rates set them in the middle then you can stiffen them up, when you notice one half doing something funny lighten it up a little. feel dumb now, just saw the part were u said u sold it last year's video |
Re: Advise for AutoX eh2 suspe
Originally Posted by Crash6066
(Post 51616084)
this is my setup, i am always top 10 in raw out of 50 and usually 1st or 2nd in class.
93 civic coupe d16 10.5:1 comp 15g 16psi 10kg front 8 kg rear from an integra with truheart 1" lower struts 97 civic sedan front sway bar NO REAR SWAY BAR 225/45/15 bfg rivals 3degrees of camber in the front and 2 degrees of camber in the rear .28 degrees of total toe OUT and .20 degrees of total toe IN front 5" splitter with air dam and a rear functional wing. i use to run a 97 ek hatch till i lift oversteered it at an event doing 60 into a pole on to ur issue. you are experiencing LIFT OVERSTEER and it sucks. there are a number of ways to get around this. first stiffen the shit out of the front. the stiffer it is the more you will know when u understeer. onto real fixes set ur rear camber to a little bit more aim for 1.5 ish. you can also use the old trick of using window paint or something to mark the edge of ur tires to see how much ur rolling over at around 35psi. if ur rolling to much in the rear increase camber. to test my theory simply disconnect the rear sway bar, you will have a bunch more rear end traction. also next time you have it alighned get alittle bit more toe OUT in the front and TOE IN in the rear. any kind of toe in will help prevent the rear from rotating, rear toe out will CAUSE the rear end to rotate. as far as dempening rates set them in the middle then you can stiffen them up, when you notice one half doing something funny lighten it up a little. feel dumb now, just saw the part were u said u sold it last year's video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmbA-jVejHk |
Re: Advise for AutoX eh2 suspe
Only thing I didn't see mentioned was corner balancing. I've got rpf1s with r888s, Tein flex coilovers, and front and rear sway bars and I notice the most issue on fast steering changes from loading one side of the suspension to cornering opposite and flipping load quickly. Toe and camber has helped some, but I just ordered scales, and I do believe that's the last part of the equation.
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