pprowler6

Ok guys my car just got all the body work done and painted grand prix white. It wasn't done by some cheap shop either. Car was painted about a month ago and i finally took it out yesterday.( First time it saw the sun) Today we noticed extreme yellowing in spots where the body shop used a skim coat. So the body work is bleeding through the sealer the basecoat and the clear coat. It looks terrible. They are gonna repaint the whole thing for free but we wanna figure out why it did this. They have only seen it happen once before and it wasnt nearly as bad. We think its either the skim coat thats crappy a shitty sealer that allowing the work to show through or the paint haha. pretty much everything. The car was painted with Valspar paint so we think maybe since we used a cheap paint its showing through. Any ideas on how we can fix the problem so it doesn't happen again? We took one fender off that was real bad sanded the clear down with 320 grit put 4 more coats of paint over top and some 3 coats of clear. We are gonna sit it out in the sun tomorrow and see if it bleeds through the basecoat again. If it does what should we do?

Stay*_*low

I would say that if it bleeds through again, you should consider using a different brand of paint.

nemisish20

Or they should stop using the RED hardener in the filler.

Back when i was doing body work for a living, a few shops in my area kept getting the same thing. My shop was one of them.

Upon doing some research we learned that using the RED hardener for the filler was probably the worst thing we could have used. We even did a test panel to test this. We put filler on a board and painted it like a champ white colo and sure enough, put it out in the sun and it bled through.

I guess the dyes in the hardener werent being held into the filler.


Tell the body shop to either use the clear or blue hardener for the filler. I have NEVER seen the blue bleed through.

pprowler6

ok thanks guys. I will tell them. Today is going to be a marathon day up at the shop. Disassembling the whole car again sanding and hopefully respray if everything goes right. But nothing ever does so i prolly wont get much done haha.

Fibercation

iTrader: (5)

what he said^^^ plus dont rush the sealer and primer....let it dry/cure a day or so and let it work itself out before paint...chemicals react all kinds of ways

93h2beg

from my experience, (i have numerous restorations under my belt) when u get bleed through, it seems to be that the sealer wasn't used or not out on think enough. I personally lay it on pretty wet, let it dry and block it with 400 then wet before i pray color. that way it ensures the body will be laser srtaight and uniform color with no sanding scratches showing through, besides it usually isn't the color coat, use cheap color thats fine just make sure u use a good clear. thats my 2 cents.

pprowler6

awesome thanks guys. We are actually gonna give it another go on tuesday/wednesday. I'm only pissed becasue i bought brand new oem seals/new glass and everything else that can be seen and its already back on the car. I can take a lot of the stuff back off but its very time consuming and im not paying to have the glass taken out again.

rs250nut

The only time I have seen the hardner bleed through is if the filler has been knocked up to go off super quick with too much hardner, even so to much hardner and the filler stays soft. School boy error

gorillafart

iTrader: (1)

yeah, i would agree as well... the choice of which filler brand you use... with a combination of the sealer u use.

i think in the end if u use top notch products thru every step u shouldnt have a problem. if cheaper brands were used then i would expect such results.

LobeSex

exactly...too much hardener will make it show through ive done that on a customers car not realizing that would happen...never did it again lol

UnleashedEJ1

This happened to me, strange enough I painted my 91 civic grand prix white useing cheap ppg paint and I have a spot of yellowish showing through the white from a dent we repaired with filler.

nemisish20

Or if theyre using a cheap filler.

I personally havent been to a shop in the last few years that still touches the red hardener.

Psychoteen101

What kind of sealer are you using? On all the paint jobs ive done, i use PPG epoxy primer DP74LF as my sealer and filler does not like hide under this stuff, regardless of thickness. Which is why i never spray color over epoxy. I always do atleast 2 full wet coats of high build primer, depending on how straight the body is, then wet sand with 4-600 paper (depending on the final color). Some sealers just dont like to hide body work.

wwbubbajoe

it shouldnt matter what sealer you use. you just might have to put a million coats on. i think the shop tried to rush too much and didnt realize that the sealer was not covering everything. we all get in a hurry so im not perfect either but thats all it seems like to me.

Psychoteen101

Puting the sealer on thick isnt the correct way to cover up the issue, although it works.

If the sealer is thick in one area, depending on paint/color choice, it could give you a different finish in that area.

wwbubbajoe

you put the sealer on even throughout the car. you can do up to eight coats. if eight coats doesnt cover it . . . strip the whole thing back down to bare metal and do it again.

JReal

iTrader: (1)

Same thing happened to me. Car's back at the shop getting re-done, hopefully it doesn't happen again.

Psychoteen101

instead of wasting your time and your materials, why not just use a primer over the sealer that actually covers body work? Good sealer costs $250+ a gallon. High build is around $55 a gallon. Seems like an easy decision for me atleast.

Sealer, then filler, then high build, final sand, paint. Havent had an issue yet with this method and its a lot cheaper and less time consuming than 3 or more coats of sealer.

DC2.2_GSR

you have your steps backwards. first it's filler and repairs, then high build 2K primer, then block sand, then sealer. you let the sealer flash off for the required amount of time (most of the time it only has to sit until you get the color in your gun and get back into the booth). base goes on, then clear. it's simply the correct way as per the paint manufacturers. sealer is mostly used for color matching, and is very important to use unless you want light or dark spots to show through into the basecoat... much like the problem listed in the OP.

I have an extensive background with Sherwin-Williams Automotive, DuPont ChromaBase, and PPG's NEXA Autocolor waterbased basecoat system. Not one of them will guarantee their products if you do the steps any differently from what's listed above.

btw... wwbubbajoe: if you put anywhere near 8 coats of sealer on a single panel, you're doing nothing but wasting material and possibly destroying the entire job. no matter what brand you use, sealer is always applied in one.. possibly two.. good coverage coats. easily 95% of the jobs i put out get only one coat, and it's 100% covered. sealer is very dense. it's a 'high solids' material, much unlike most basecoats that require anywhere from 3 to 6 coats (most yellows are very thin).

pprowler6

well we are gonna sand the whole car down tomorrow and we did buy epoxy primer so it will cover everything up. Are you saying not to use epoxy primer? Also I think we are gonna go with dupont chromabase paint because the color of the valspar grand prix white doesnt match oem at all or we were gonna try out ppgs waterborne paint. Any other suggestions?

So should i do this???

-So sand the car back down..How much?
-respray sealer
-primer
-basecoat
-clear

And in your opinion what brand clearcoat should i use to get the least amount of yellowing because it seems if you use a cheaper brand of clearcoat it yellows a little

pprowler6

Damn your pretty close to me..I shoulda brought my car to you guys to paint seems like you know what your doing a lot better than my guys.

DC2.2_GSR

If you're interested, I have a gallon and a half of Sherwin's Honda Grand Prix white already mixed up that I have no use for. I made it a while back when I was thinking about spraying my 'teg GPW, but I decided to go with a blue instead. I payed around $250 (my cost from my shop), but I'll sell it for $125. It's just taking up space on the shelf. I can meet up with you anytime after 5:30 on weekdays and wherever you want. west chester is like a 25 minute drive for me.


just so you know, you can't just 'try out' water based paint, for a number of reasons. our booth has been retrofitted with a $5000 air dryer system that removes all but fractions of a percent of moisture from the supplied air. it seems counter-intuitive, but even a little moisture in the supplied air will actually destroy a job that uses water based paint. we also have high powered fans in the ceiling and a handful of SATA Dry Jet venturi air dryers. The compressor is also a massive 10 hp compressor to handle the extreme airflow and high pressures required to get the right amount of air to the guns and dryers. water based paint also takes a lot of experience to learn to spray right. once you learn it's quite easy, but for someone who is used to spraying solvent, water will be a night and day difference. i've been down to PPG's training center in Baltimore, MD 3 times now and each time i learn more about the system that helps problem solve certain colors, etc. unless you've already been trained in waterborne paint, just stick with solvent. DuPont (or Spies-Hecker), PPG (or Deltron), Sherwin Auto, BASF (or Diamont), Sikkens, etc. will all work out great, they're all quality paints.

as for redoing the job, you shouldn't have to do any priming again, and maybe not much sealer either as long as the panels are straight like you want them, the clear looks nice (no runs, sags, etc.) and it has cured properly and the only problem you have is the color bleeding through. if that accurately describes the paint right now, then just follow these steps for a perfect job:

1: first, sand the entire car with 800 grit dry on a DA sander. haze out the entire surface and make sure to scuff the edges with a red or gray scuff pad. be careful not to go through the clear or else you'll have to seal all of the spots. this should be done in the identical way that you would prep a panel for a blend. if the materials were applied properly before, but you just got some color dye back somehow, then you do not need to take off any material when you prep... just rough the surface with 800 so the new material has something to grip.

2: assuming you have no major through spots and your only issue was just the bleeding color, you can now blow off the car and wipe it down and get ready for sealer and base.

3: i'm also going to assume you have the proper color sealer, which for a white basecoat is obviously white sealer. spray the sealer over just the bled-through area, and also any other areas that you might have had to fix. this is NOT a complete coverage coat of the whole panel or car. remember, the sealer is only for color match... to give you a nice clean properly colored bed onto which you lay the basecoat. spray the sealer as if you were doing a color blend.. lift and 'knife' the gun at the end of each pass so that it feathers into the rest of the panel. you absolutely do not want to just 'stop' the fan after covering the spots.

4: after you have sealed the problem areas, you can then base and clear as normal. make sure to let the sealer flash off as per the tech data sheet that's supplied by the sealer manufacturer. as i said before, PPG, DuPont, and Sherwin sealers almost always flash in the time it takes me to get back to the mixing room, clean my sealer gun, put the color in my basecoat gun, get a drink, and get back into the booth.


for clear, i personally like the way Keystone's low VOC clear sprays. it's an 'off' brand... keystone is basically just a paint jobber that manufactures some materials as well, but it really works well. if you want I can get the exact part numbers of the clear and activator tomorrow when i get into the shop. pretty much any clear will work fine. even some very high end clears have a tint of yellow to them, and it won't affect the look on an overall paint job as much as it would if you were only doing a fender. i also recommend DuPont's 72500S clear. it's a high end 'premium performance' clear and i LOVE the way it lays and even the way it sands and buffs. if your painter can't get either of those clears, i can get anything dupont, PPG, or keystone for you if you want.

pprowler6

awesome i will be in contact with you after I talk to my paint guys tomorrow and see what the deal is. Thanks a lot I really appreciate it!

brian8702

what it sounds like to me. the shop that fixed your car didnt follow the proper steps with applying primer.
im guessing they shot sealer over bodyfiller which would cause it to bleed thru.
body shops do it to save money but in the end result screwing over the good paying customers.
i've never seen a bleed thru the primer surfacer and sealer then thru the paint.
I use spies heckler and PPG and i've never had a problem

wwbubbajoe

btw... wwbubbajoe: if you put anywhere near 8 coats of sealer on a single panel, you're doing nothing but wasting material and possibly destroying the entire job. no matter what brand you use, sealer is always applied in one.. possibly two.. good coverage coats. easily 95% of the jobs i put out get only one coat, and it's 100% covered. sealer is very dense. it's a 'high solids' material, much unlike most basecoats that require anywhere from 3 to 6 coats (most yellows are very thin).[/QUOTE]


funny. i read that right off the back of the can i just got done spraying. its says up to but no more then eight medium coats. you dont want your sealer to go on heavy. I have been doing thins for 12 years and went to college for it years ago. Ive done enough jobs to know how to do it right.