SuicideSlide

So guys can I clear coat a single stage paint job? Will it be worth it?

DDEVIANT1

In most cases yes you can... But for you will also need to re base it to so the clear has something to bite into. So if you are gonna do that you might as well just use a proper base clear setup

NeKe1point0

im guessing you already have a single stage job on and not happy with the shine ?

to answer your question, yes you can, now is it worth it ???? well thats kind of an opinionated question.

id say no, not worth buying single stage and clear, Id say if you havent bought the single stage just save the extra $ and do a bc/cc system instead.

Inextricabledrvr

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SuicideSlide &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So guys can I clear coat a single stage paint job? Will it be worth it? </TD></TR></TABLE>

I actually got my 5th gen prelude painted ss/cc to save a few hundred dollars and it turned out pretty good.

I had to wetsand it a little to get some orange peel off, but other then that it is doable.

Its all up to you and your budget. I got an earfull from people saying you wasted your money, but hey you're the one paying for it...

97grnrs

yes u can.. ive done it many times.. my current paint job i did has only two clears over the single stage candy green and it looks really glossy and nice.. i didnt even sand and buff either with that it would be even better..

DDEVIANT1

There is no such thing a single stage Kandy??

As for the cost factor getting true BC/CC is not that much more than getting SS/CC why would you not do it the right way?

DC2.2_GSR

i agree. clearing over single stage is kinda ghetto. just buy base and clear. do it right. i'm not too sure what's up with people trying to save money and cheat out of doing things the right way. if you did the research, you'd see that DDEVIANT1 is right, base is no more expensive than single stage. honestly i'd be worried about lifting and fisheyes when spraying over single stage. it's not meant to be under clear. that's why it's single stage.

LoSt is BlaCk

post pics of cars done in the ss/cc...

blue2000em1

Yes it would be I'll explain it to you in one second.

That's very not true.I've done multiple single stage jobs with a coat of extra clear on top.There's no need to do that.

Very true,But for the budget you can't go wrong.

That's where your wrong, unless you're using the lowest line of paint on there branch for a bc/cc job.Hint "less tints used".

That's so false clearing over single stage ain't ghetto at all.Also lifting is caused by not having a panel or panels not sanded correctly.As for fisheye that's caused by contamination before preping for paint.Caused by greasy fingers,dirty hands,etc.Hint wax and grease remover and precleaner products to stop that.And if your still **** they do make a fisheye eliminator product as well to try to eliminate possible fisheye.

No!!! It's called single stage because it's a clear with pigment(color) in it Hint: "single stage".Definetly can be cleared on top sir sorry.

To answer all your questions SuicideSlide Single stage ain't really that bad as these people make it look.I sprayed it several times on various types of cars.If it's done correctly it can last years if taken care of.As for the extra coat of clear on top it's very recommend.Because Single stage is a clear with pigment(color) in it.Throughout
time you'll start to notice it fading due to the sun.That's why it's recommended to put that extra coat of clear on it.Also I notice to that if you where to watersand and buff.Without the extra coat of clear on it.You'll see that the color will be most of the time on your wool pad.Same with runs when you try to buff it out it'll generally become darker when buffed without that extra coat of clear.(happens mostly with your cheaper single stages).Like I said it really ain't bad at all.But if you do have the extra money go ahead with a bc/cc system instead.Best of luck .

b18bye

i have done it looked fine and no one knew the difference .

dispocrx

you can clear over it for the extra protection, but if you are going to clear then you might as well go bc/cc depends on your budget....and the color too, for a metallic i'd rather go bc/cc, but if its a solid color then single stage with a couple coats of clear will look great too!

blue2000em1

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dispocrx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you can clear over it for the extra protection, but if you are going to clear then you might as well go bc/cc depends on your budget....and the color too, for a metallic i'd rather go bc/cc, but if its a solid color then single stage with a couple coats of clear will look great too! </TD></TR></TABLE>

Very true metallics are much more difficult.But for solid colors it's not really that hard to spray.Well for me at least.

DC2.2_GSR

blue2000em1...

to clear on top of single stage paint IS ghetto. it's wrong. it's not intelligent. why the hell would you pay for a single stage paint which is meant to be left alone, and also buy clear coat? you want extra shine? buff the damn thing. clearcoating on top of a paint which is not supposed to have clear on it can definitely cause lifting. they're not meant for each other. clear coat is designed to go over top of basecoat... that's it. if you put it over anything else it MUST be cured completely and scuffed, or else there is a possibility of lift. i don't care if you or anyone else has done it before and gotten away with it, it's not the proper way to do things.

base coat is NO MORE EXPENSIVE... so why would you buy a paint that is not meant to have clear coat on top of it? buy basecoat and save the trouble. people have this insane fascination with trying to cheap out on paint when refinishing their cars. it makes no sense. man up and spend some cash or else don't **** with it.

base is the one thing you can actually save money on, because the color is mixed the same way no matter if its cheap or expensive. i just bought (through the shop where i work, at retail price) 1.5 gallons of Sherwin Grand Prix White for my own car.. know how much it was? $98.74. i bought a gallon of Dupont 7900 clear. know how much that was? $180.00. for under $300, you have all the materials to do a proper paint job. single stage + clear coat would be identical in price. now... if it comes down to a desicion of spending $300 on base/clear vs. $300 on single stage/clear and you can't make a decision, you need to GTFO of the industry.


oh, btw, you're not teaching me anything about the paint process. i've been doing it for years in a real shop. i can't do it the half assed ghetto Maaco way, sorry.

blue2000em1

DC2.2_GSR....



Again you're wrong.Please explain to me how it's ghetto????If you where clearly intelligent, you'll see that in back of most Single Stage products.They do recommend a coat of clear on top of the single stage.(Well at least the basf products I deal with).Still don't believe me DC2.2_GSR go to a jobbers and look yourself.

Why do you think I say that it's recommended that you should put an extra coat of clear on the vehicle??????? Because generally if you'd buff without that extra coat of clear.The color will show on your woolpad(on the cheaper single stages).

Hahaha, and what do you think single stage is?????? It's a clear with a pigment in it.That's why it has a tendency to fade throughout years.And can help prevent that with a coat of clear as they recommend.

Man, you really should go to school,apparently you really don't know squat about urethanes,laquers,waterbornes,enamels.Or a general idea on prices between different products.

You're so hard headed man.


base is the one thing you can actually save money on, because the color is mixed the same way no matter if its cheap or expensive. i just bought (through the shop where i work, at retail price) 1.5 gallons of Sherwin Grand Prix White for my own car.. know how much it was? $98.74. i bought a gallon of Dupont 7900 clear. know how much that was? $180.00. for under $300, you have all the materials to do a proper paint job.

Wrong again!!!!!! Cheaper basecoat paints have less variants(tints) resulting in a poorer color matching rather than the more exspensive ones.

Wow I hope you don't feel proud of yourself.Why do you need a gallon and a half to do a color change on a integra.And why are you messing with the lowest line of paint there is(Sherwin Williams) .And you paid $98 for a plain white without reducer .Dang you do know bast is reduce 2:1 right???? a gallon is more than enough to do jambs,bay,etc.................. And you paid 180 for clear with still no reducers and hardners?????? You're aware that it's very recommended to go with a product from the ground up right??????????

So DC2.2_GSR you want to know all and all how much everything rang up for???????? $160 for the single stage(and it was a bright *** red for a saturn)which you should know red is expensive.And came with the hardner and reducer.And the gallon of clear was $40.So all and all it was around $200 to be exact.(minus tax of course)And about that comment DC2.2_GSR the idiot that needs to get out this industry is you.

I'am sorry to break this to you DC2.2_GSR but you really don't know **** about the autobody industry especially paints.

Sorry to break this to you DC2.2_GSR but my father OWNS a bodyshop so I don't get what that statement was suppose to mean,and it ain't macco??????And what have you been doing in this real shop sweeping floors????Oh and macco uses also singlestage and base clear so what does that mean.

I just want everyone to know that I'am not saying that base/clear is not better than single stage.That's foolish I'am saying that for a budget you really can't go wrong with it. And that if you follow the procedures correctly by applying that last coat as they recommend. in back of the can you can get a nice finish all and all.DC2.2_GSR

DDEVIANT1

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blue2000em1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">




Again you're wrong.Please explain to me how it's ghetto????If you where clearly intelligent, you'll see that in back of most Single Stage products.They do recommend a coat of clear on top of the single stage.(Well at least the basf products I deal with).Still don't believe me DC2.2_GSR go to a jobbers and look yourself.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

I hate to be rude, but if the prodcut recomends a clear over top then it is not single stage, REAL single stage is just that, single stage. And it is not clear mixed with color, it is paint that is designed to be applied solely by itself, whereas the Hardeners and UV inhibitors are mixed into it.

And I have been painting custom bikes for the last 8 years, and I do know what I am talking about, painting clear over single stage is not only pointless, it can actually change the colour and yellow it, single stage is not deisgned to be cleared and by adding clear over top you are changing the tint of the paint due to the yellow tinting to the clear affecting the base tones in the single stage paint.

NeKe1point0

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NeKe1point0 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
to answer your question, yes you can, now is it worth it ???? well thats kind of an OPINIONATED question.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

this thread reminds me of 2 old guys sitting around drinking beer arguing about which is better ford or chevy.

DC2.2_GSR

thank you DDEVIANT1. you are the only other person i have seen posting intelligently in the Paint and Body section. thank you for your educated, thought out response. you are clearly a career painter and you obviously have the experience that a certain member posting in this thread seems to lack.

in fact i did buy my paint with the proper reducers. my gallon of clear came with the activator. my prices were including everything necessary. i deal with Dupont products every day, i have thought out every option and purchase.

i bought a gallon and a half because i am spraying the car inside and out. i'm very aware of panel coverage and i've gone over it many times with reps from Dupont

Sherwin basecoat is no better or worse than any BASF, Dupont, PPG, Glasurit, etc basecoat. if you were so informed as you seem to think you are, you would realize that most companies are owned by the same conglomerate and share pigments.

in addition, i have already described (in another thread) how i tested each manufacturer's basecoat underneath Dupont 72500 and 7900S clearcoat.

your repeated comments about less tints in a cheaper base makes no sense whatsoever. Sherwin's mix is nearly identical to Duponts or BASF or anything else. they have the same number of tints. the number of variants has everything to do with color matching and nothing to do with paint quality. again, Sherwin has the same number of variants as Dupont... and actually has a much better selection and is much easier to match.

blue2000em1

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DDEVIANT1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I hate to be rude, but if the prodcut recomends a clear over top then it is not single
[QUOTE=DDEVIANT1]And it is not clear mixed with color, it is paint that is designed to be applied solely by itself, whereas the Hardeners and UV inhibitors are mixed into it. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I hate to be rude,But that sir is incorrect.As for the other statement about the yellow tining that mostly happens if you where doing a spot repair.Not an overall sir.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DC2.2_GSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">thank you DDEVIANT1.[/B] you are the only other person i have seen posting intelligently in the Paint and Body section. thank you for your educated, thought out response. you are clearly a career painter and you obviously have the experience that a certain member posting in this thread seems to lack. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Is it me or are you kissing his ***????? DC2.2_GSR wipe that brown stain off your face.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DC2.2_GSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Sherwin basecoat is no better or worse than any BASF, Dupont, PPG, Glasurit, etc basecoat. if you were so informed as you seem to think you are, you would realize that most companies are owned by the same conglomerate and share pigments.

Just for your information glasurit is owned by Basf.

[QUOTE=DC2.2_GSR]if you were so informed as you seem to think you are, you would realize that most companies are owned by the same conglomerate and share pigments. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Wow,That's the stupidest thing I ever heard. So if they all share the same pigments why is ppg having problems with there color matches?????

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DC2.2_GSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Sherwin's mix is nearly identical to Duponts or BASF or anything else. they have the same number of tints. the number of variants has everything to do with color matching and nothing to do with paint quality. </TD></TR></TABLE>

How dumb can you be man,Bet you didn't know that different paints are synthetic unlike someothers. Hint:Sherwin Williams has a synthetic polyester.Ever notice when it drys it has a sticky feel?????Sharing my a$$.

You can argue with me all day DC2.2_GSR.Remember I have plenty of friends that are jobbers and also Basf reps.Just can't wait till I'am hired soon.


Modified by blue2000em1 at 7:47 PM 6/29/2008

DDEVIANT1

No I am not wrong, I have done a lot or research thruout my years of custom painting and it is 100 percent true that most of the tints being used by the manufacturers are from the same chemical company, the difference is in how they combine their tints and the bases that are used as the carriers for the tints. And I bet you think that waterbourne ( not waterbased ) use different pigments, guess what, nope a good deal of their pigments are also sourced from the exact same chemical company as the good old urethane based are from.

And for you to say the clear does not yellow the paint unless you do spot repair, uh hello, it still yellows it no matter what you are doing, the difference is only noticeable when you spot repair with it, it is still yellowed. And while we are on the subject, not only will it yellow singel stage, but most modern refinish clears do not have a perfect DOI ( distinctness of image) which is caused by microscopic anomilies in the clear and hardeners, so it can affect the paints clarity as well as color.

Now I dont dare calim to know everything, nor do I think I ever will, but what I do know is that single stage paints are outdated in todays world of urethane BC/CC and Waterbourne paints, and the only reason is that they are even still around is that some people still want to cheap out and buy them. They are not anywhere near the same quality as BC/CC and they do not have anywhere near the UV stability or abrasion resistance that BC/CC does, especially not with the new age ceramic based clears( ask anyone who has tried to paint a Ferrari F430 how hard it is to scuff the clear) The only thing that SS has going for it is the price and the ability to be colour sanded and buffed numerous times, whereas the modern clears are applied very thin and cannot be sanded and buffed more than once safely.

And PPG is having problems with colour matching according to who, My local jobber always gets the match almost dead on and I can do the final tint with no problems.

I have friends who are rocket scientist, like literally they engineer rockets, and I guess that means I should work for NASA. It really doesnt matter what your friends do, you obviously still have something to learn. I hate to be rude and say that, but that is my opinion.

Oh and I seriously don't think 2.2 was kissing my ***, perhaps when 2 people agree on the same thing and both have substantial knowledge, they are doing just that agreeing, not shoving their nose up some ones ***. Pardon my language, but seriously do you paint for a living, and at what level? I don't do it for a living, but it is a very serious hobby for me and I have the clientele and the trophies to back my work up, and no that's not bragging in any sense of the word just fact.


Modified by DDEVIANT1 at 7:25 AM 6/30/2008

DC2.2_GSR

again.. well said.

blue, do you even realize that while you are still trying to stretch out an arguement, all you're doing is getting more and more rude and insulting while the people (person) you are trying to argue against are staying factual? you can have all the friends in the business but when you lack specific knowledge about a subject, you should probably just keep quiet. shouldn't spread false information my friend.

i'm here to help out where i can, not to argue with some kid about paint products. you're obviously set in your ways and won't update your thinking to the 21st century, so we'll leave it at that. Sir.

blue2000em1

Please DDEVIANT1 do more research, obviously you still have more information to learn. Why do you think each company has different prices on paint???? Different companies have different amounts of tints they use.More tint on that paint= better color matching.You have to be real idiotic to believe that one company produces all there tints to different manufactures.And if so DDEVIANT1 what is this so call manufactures name??????? Obviously I haven't heard of it.Keep your "hobby to yourself" and stop saying information that's wrong.


What knowledge DDeVIANT1???????? I see you as a joke along with,DC2.2_GSR. I can't believe you send false information to people on Honda-tech in the Paint and body forum.Do me a big favor,and please don't go to either Chip foose, or Jon Kosmoski and say some stuff like that as they laugh in your face .Why do you think companies spend million and millions of dollars producing there own pigments at there own labratories.

My boys car I sprayed with with him.New owner now Courtesy of (Highrevn)





My boy Ajs car I sprayed with him as well.





My friends Ian car I helped with my stepdad.





I can keep going.Oh and dont worry I'll upload some pictures of cars with single stage with the coat of clear on top.

Helping with what,spreading information that absolutely makes no sense and is false.And what kid buddy your not that much older than me.I'am set in my ways because the information is correct to state it out I wouldn't be here saying it if over multiple corprate say the same thing(making there own pigments) .For what it seems you need to go to some i-car classes and get your ase because you don't know what your talking about or your buddy either.You need to update to the 21's century.Psss proud of sherwin williams paint lol can't believe you think paint is all made the same silly NOOB.So we'll leave it at that. I can get more technical if you want guys I have no problem with it.But when you try to make me look like I don't know what I'am talking about that's when I'll reply with the a--hole remarks in return.Don't think you can insult me and get nothing back in return.





Modified by blue2000em1 at 12:58 PM 6/30/2008

DDEVIANT1

Ok so you have painted a few cars, and they look great in those pictures... You obviously have some sort of skill, I wont deny that. But you are telling me Im a joke??? You didnt even take the quarter window out of that eg hatch you just masked it, that is a joke, Im sorry, but that is a great way to get paint lift, nasty paint edges and serious adhesion problems.

And its a joke for chemical suppliers to supply products to more than one other company??? Uh ok yeah, I said they base pigments are from 1 let me restate waht I previously said, a few and I mean very few suppliers. The way that the pigments and dyes are combined and the base carriers that are used are what makes it different. And as for prices being different, well lets see that could ba any number of factors. It could be that some companies buy in considerably more bulk than other companies so they would obviously get a better deal, or some companies cut their product down with more fillers than dyes and toners, that could definately affect the price...Or hey how about profit and bottom line, perhaps some companies want to make more money could that possibly affect the price you pay?

ANd seriosuly you wanna throw names out there like Jon Kosmoski and Chip Foose, pull you head out of your ***, Have you had in depth discussions with either, I have spoken briefly with Jon and have talked to Mr Foose on more than one occasion, and for a few more names, I converse with Bryan Lynch of HOK on occasion, Craig Fraser, I have also spoke with Deb Man and Steve Driscoll, Then there is my local reps and the other custom painters that I know, but hey what do those people know.

I will do this for you though, I will personally ask Mr Foose this exact question when I go to SEMA in the fall, and I will throw it past Bryan Lynch and Craig Fraser too in the next couple of days here and see what they say, Im not all that worried about the response though as I already have talked to them about it.

That said some manufacturers have their own special products, some have different pearls and and that type of thing, some claim to have different chameleons even though the base chemicals are all bought out of one place and mixed at different ratios and differently to get different results.


And here is one for you, If I am wrong in any way shape or form, I will man up and say so will you?

DC2.2_GSR

sorry man (em1), i just won't argue with you. you're obviously getting off on typing aggressively so you can have fun with that. i'm not worried about proving myself to you. i mean, at first i was making sure that this guy got straight forward info, then i see your ignorance and i figured i'd try to make sure noone else took your false information as fact, and now i just don't give a ****. any informed career painter will read this thread and realize who's correct, so F' it..

edit** never mind, i will say this. paint companies all have suppliers. if you are so ignorant to think that every company is high enough on the business food chain to be able to afford R&D of each individual product, then you need to either a.) STFU and don't make comments about things you are uneducated about. or b.) do your research, take business and chemical engineering classes at reputable institutions like some of the rest of us have... and then discuss the ups and downs of the automotive coatings industry like an adult. or c.) just plain STFU.

here's exactly what deviant is talking about.

"Flex Products in Santa Rosa, CA, a JDS Uniphase company, is a wholly owned subsidiary of Optical Coating Laboratory, Inc. and manufactures ALL of the Chromaflair (color-shifting) pigment used in the following paint lines:

BASF - "Extreme Colors"
Dupont Refinish - "ChromaLusion"
Glasurit GmbH - "Fantasy Colors"
Kansai Paint - "Spectroshine"
Nippon Paint - "Maziora"
NOF Corp - "Illusion Colors"
PPG - "Harlequin Color"
Resene Santano - "Kaleidoscope"
Sherwin Williams - "MultiTones"
Standox - "Exclusive Line"
Valspar/House of Kolor - "Kameleon Kolors"

Something else to make you look like an idiot, here's Sherwin's basecoat mix for 32oz. of R81, Honda Milano Red, compared to single stage mix. it should be clear now that single stage IS NOT clear coat with colorants in it.

not only is single stage more expensive, but it is mixed with nearly the same colorants, with the only difference being the hardeners and activators.

BASECOAT
Number Color Name Cumulative Non-Cumulative Cost
U7209....CLEAR BINDER......18.6.............18.6...........$1.58
U7031....UHS BRT RED........289.5...........270.9.........$49.25
U7139....HS VIOLET............445.2...........155.7..........$ 27.82
U7282....UHS BC WHITE......448.9 ............3.7...........$0.20
U7218....HS BLACK.............449.2.............0.3........... $0.02
BCS605..STD STABILIZE.....847.1...........397.9..........$8.52
UH904....U7 SPEED HARD....878.1............31.0...........$2.35
.................................................. ..............Total : $89.74

SINGLE STAGE

Number Color Name Cumulative Non-Cumulative Cost
U7400.....ULT 2K MIX CL...166.4..........166.4..........$6.67
U7031.....UHS BRT RED....380.8..........214.4.........$38.98
U7139.....HS VIOLET........544.0...........163.2........$29.17
U7303 .... RAPID CURE....609.7...........65.7..........$6.53
U7110......S WHITE..........614.1...........4.4............$0.1 8
US3...ULTRASOLV #3........747.8..........133.7.........$2.19
UH80..LOW VOC HARD.....918.5..........170.7........$15.95
.................................................. .............Total : $99.67

man, Sherwin Williams sure is cheap! i mean, look at how they don't have enough colorants!


Modified by DC2.2_GSR at 4:30 PM 6/30/2008

DDEVIANT1

Can we just lock this thread now please.

DC2.2_GSR

yeah i agree.. i feel like a 3rd grader. sorry guys.