rapser

I have a 2011 pilot. I am very disappointed with its performance at the winter. One of the biggest reasons I got it is the 4wd. But only today I found out that it can get on 4wd only with the button on 2nd gear AND under 30mph...... When its on D and its slippery it doesn't engage 4WD but kinda breaks the rear wheels to avoid instability.
So when its slippery the car slides almost like my previous car - corolla...

I have 2 questions:

1. Do you have the same experience? Maybe my car has a problem.
2. What car does what I want? Meaning so I can put in on 4wd when I want. OR that doesnt behave this way.

thanks

goldsy

The RTAWD systems don't work like a conventional 4WD.

There are 2 hydraulic pumps. One in the front, one in the back. When all 4 wheels spin at the same rate, the pressure in the 2 pumps are equal and the fluid circulates between 2. When the front wheels slip, there is a difference in hydraulic pressure between the 2 pumps which opens a valve, which in turn engages a clutch which spins the drive shaft, turning the rear differential and then gives power to the rear wheels.

I'm not sure what you're referring to with only getting 4WD when in 2nd gear and under 30MPH. I've never heard of this. My CR-V doesn't behave this way. I would assume the systems operate the same way.

The AWD engages when you need it and doesn't run constantly.

goldsy

Dupe post

speedlever

rapser, you need to become educated about the VTM-4 system that Honda uses and calls a 4wd system. It is primarily a FWD (front wheel drive) system with rear wheel assist, as called for by the VTM-4 system logic.

It is one of the most capable systems out there and performs well if you just put it in drive and let it go.

Your mention of 2nd gear indicates that you are referring to the manual VTM-4 lock. VTM-4 lock only works in 1, 2 and R and is basically a manual over-ride of the automatic system.

Be advised that if you select gear position 2, the transmission is locked in 2nd gear at all times. It does NOT start out in first gear and then shift to 2nd. There are times when starting in 2nd gear is appropriate, but that is not a normal condition. Think driving on ice, for example.

The manual lock will diminish with speed and will completely disengage by 18 mph. However, under normal conditions in the default mode, VTM-4 will direct power to the rear wheels at any speed whenever it detects a speed difference between the front (driven) wheels and the rear wheels.

The manual lock is typically used when you are stuck or anticipate difficult conditions and wish to pre-empt the automatic system.

The VSA (vehicle stability assist) system also provides somewhat of a limited slip differential effect by braking a spinning wheel and transferring the power to the opposite side wheel. However, this only works on the front wheels and not on the rear (which are driven by electrically actuated clutches). If the VSA system cannot control wheel spin via the brakes, it will cut power to the engine (making it feel like the engine is bogging down).

The negative to the VSA system is that in certain conditions you need wheel spin in order to maintain momentum (think deep snow, sand, or mud). If left in the default on condition, the VSA system will cut power to the engine in these circumstances making it feel like the vehicle is bogging down. To counter this, switch off the VSA by the control switch whenever you need wheel spin in order to keep moving. Then switch it back on when you exit those conditions.

VSA will auto switch on if you shut down and then restart too.

If you want to get a better understanding of how the VTM-4 system works, here is a link from the Ridgeline Owners Club with an explanation of the VTM-4 system from the chief designer of the Honda Ridgeline. This is applicable to the Pilot too. (I have both a Pilot and a Ridgeline).
http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/f...3&postcount=71

speedlever

goldsy, the CRV 4wd system is different from the Pilot/RL VTM-4 4wd system. I'm not sure why Honda uses two entirely different systems like this.

goldsy

Ah ok cool. Thanks. I was unaware of that. I'm not familiar with the Pilot setup.

speedlever

One other important ingredient in the slippery conditions scenario is tires. If the tires have significant wear, that will adversely affect performance in the snow. A good set of snow tires (if you live in snow country) will go a very long way to improving snow driving. Blizzaks or similar.

A 2011 Pilot is now 3 model years old. If still on the original tires, that may well be the issue.

rapser

First of all Thank you for detailed explanation! Finally I understand what is going on.

Let me be short and blunt here. It sounds to me like boolshit and a scam ran by Honda. Because they shouldnt even talk about 4wd especially putting the label on a car. It is nowhere near 4wd (all in) at any point (according to your explanation). It is not NEAR as stable as CR-V, 4 Runner, Jeep... ammm any other REAL 4wd SUV (or AWD).... And the fact that they put this system on a truck too....????? I almost fell off the chair.
Basically what Pilot is a soccer moms car like Odyssey for example that looks good and mechanical performance in hard conditions is out of the window.

Now I learned that so I need new car....

speedlever

Not really. Most conventional 4wd vehicles are really 2wd drive... one wheel driven per axle,,, unless you have lockers or a limited slip differential. IMO, the VTM-4 system is superior to the RealTime 4wd of the CRV, but inferior to the Acura SH-AWD system that can not only direct power to the rear, but also side-to-side.

There are many on the ROC (Ridgeline forum) that say the RL is the best snow vehicle they've ever driven... and they live in snow country. So maybe your Pilot has a problem if the tires are in good shape.

Today's 4wd/awd vehicles are much more technological than yesterday's conventional 4wd vehicles. You almost need to go to school to know how to fully appreciate their capabilities.

For the VTM-4 system, when the rear diff is locked, you basically have 3 wheels being driven. The front wheels are like the conventional open diff (only one wheel powered) while the rear is locked... to a point. It is not a mechanical lock, so at some point, the power required to spin the wheels may be more than the clutches can hold, and so the clutches can slip.

In the front, if VSA is left enabled, it acts like a limited slip diff and brakes the spinning wheel directing power to the opposite side. So your maximum 4wd effect is when the rear diff is locked and VSA is on.

Bottom line, when the VTM-4 system is left in normal mode (VSA on and rear diff not manually locked), the system will send power to the rear as needed. If you read the info at the links above, you'll see that the system is primarily a front wheel drive, rear wheel assist system that really does a good job and meets the needs of most drivers.

I'd really look hard at your tires if you have traction problems, assuming your Pilot has been properly maintained and the systems are functioning normally.

Good luck.

Edit: I just read a post at the ROC which may address some of your issues with the VTM-4 system. Read it and see what you think:
http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/f...4&postcount=36

rapser

Thank you for detailed information.

My tires are fine. Here is the bottom line.
Average user doesnt need all this...ammm technology. They dont need to get out of mud or snow or need it much less then not slip on a snowy road. If thats true than AWD (all 4 wheels always have traction) is much more superior to Honda's system

Todd00

I'm not so sure that you do...

The AWD system in the CR-V is inferior to the one in the Pilot and Ridgeline, period. And yes, your 2011 Pilot will be superior to any Jeep, 4runner, etc in the snow because it is FWD, then switches to AWD when it senses slip.

Turn off traction control the next time you are in the snow. This will allow wheelspin by all 4 wheels and should provide what you are looking for.

You are waaay off on that assumption. Obviously, you're not clear on how to operate your vehicle or what to expect from it. Please read the owners manual for a description of the VTM-4 system and how to operate it.

rapser

so you are saying that all 4 wheels working all the time (crv or Mercedes glk) is inferior?

Todd00

Then perhaps you should go out and find a 1985 Ford F150 with a 4WD lever and hubs that you need to manually lock, because pretty much *every* AWD system on the market today has a computer controlling where the power goes.

Todd00

The CRV, at most, has 2 wheels that receive power (one in the front and one in the rear). That's it. You are very confused as to what's going on with your own car and with others.

The CRV has an open diff both front and rear, so if half the car is on ice and the other half stuck on solid ground...you aren't going to go anywhere.

Todd00

OP, watch this. The first two SUV's up that hill are how most AWD systems work.

The last one is an Acura with SH-AWD (their best system).


Also, read this:

http://www.piloteers.org/forums/67-p...dx-sh-awd.html

Todd00

.

rapser

so pilot is sorta acura system?

rapser

so the best car for snowy highways is Acura. Correct? (not even Benz or BMW?)

Todd00

Did you even read this link?

http://www.piloteers.org/forums/67-p...dx-sh-awd.html

SH-AWD is good in the snow, but it is also designed to aid in dry handling. VTM-4 is designed for traction control (snow, mud, etc).

We cannot make it any clearer to you. If you feel the need to "downgrade" your vehicle based on what you think you know...then more power to you.

rapser

I read it. And in theory I understand. But today again I was skidding on snow while driving 25mph in D and making 20 degree turn!

rapser

plus no one answered the question how vtm-4 compares to 4Matic and BMW X system

But I thank you all for helping. If you could answer about Mercedes GLK and BMWx3 would be most appreciated.

Todd00

Last post in here, then you are on your own (God help us all):

AWD helps you get going from a stop and helps you go through areas where multiple wheels need traction. However...AWD DOES NOT help you stop any better nor does it really help you corner any better in the snow (except maybe for those AWD systems that excel in advanced torque vectoring--like SH-AWD). The rest comes down to your tires, period.

If you want a good snow car, then get proper snow tires (all-season tires are NOT proper snow tires). I cannot make that any clearer.

As for a comparison to the Merc/BMW AWD systems...do that research on your own.

Cliff notes: Your tires are the issue, not the Pilot. Let me repeat...your TIRES are the issue.

I am done.

speedlever

You cannot repeal the laws of physics. There are too many variables and too many unknowns for an internet diagnosis of your concern. If you have snow on top of ice, all bets are off for any system.

I agree that your situation is most likely related to your tires. Anything less than 6/32 or so will likely be problematic in the snow. If you have 3 years of wear on them in normal driving, you very likely have good tires.. but not tires that are good in the snow.

As for the Mercedes and BMW systems, I have no knowledge of them.

johnsc2235

Tires are your best bet in winter driving. Just because you have a lot of tread means nothing. You need tires with lots of sips.
As far as pilot system and other systems... I work for Honda, the systems are good and work well, I drive a VW Touareg. It's all wheel drive all the time. It's a beast in the snow, but once my tires get worn to anything less than 6/32 it's a different creature. I do have dedicated snow tires on it as well. Do I love it?? Yes BUT it sucks gas.. Like 14-15mpg at best..., it's expensive, new pilots loaded were $42k, my touareg was $59k... And I've already had the front and rear diffs replaced as well as the driveshaft...costing about $8000 so u tell me... If u got deep pockets buy something with awd.. Put some blizzaks on it and your good to go.... Or keep the reliable pilot and put blizzaks on that and save yourself a lot of $$$$$$. Just my view point.