SSR'd

its more than just 20 ponies...


k20

Chubz

ordered a complete k20a swap for my 01 gsr, will be doing the swap after the holidays....anyone want a 97 jdm itr motor with ctr cams

Jon V

Does the hood clear the PS pulley?

RadRonny

sick wid it

Broken Gearbox

wow very sexy, looks sick.

R you serious

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 303TopSecret &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
the B18c5 currently sells for $4000</TD></TR></TABLE>
Jeff&lt;---- who is currently looking for an itr motor cant seem to find one that cheap

Black R

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 303TopSecret &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the B18c5 currently sells for $4000, and the complete K20(R) changeover cost roughly $8000. so that means an extra $4000, for an extra 20 ponies. Sure the K20a has more potential for max hp output over the B18c5, but hp only goes so far in any type of racing. ecu, suspension, aerodynamics, etc... plays a huge roll in a teams success. four G's really worth it? im sure the B18c5 will do fine, but i guess if salary allows you too... its your money</TD></TR></TABLE>


.....the potential of the relatively stock k20 is what most of us are looking at. Any mods that are put on a b-series are going to make much more power on a k-series... And with typical bolt-ons the motor isn't nearly as stressed to make over 220whp. B-series is nearly tapped out at that point...

I remember reading recently that the k20R motor's head was capable of flowing in stock form as much as a pro-level b-series head... that's where the power's at, imho...

I'm waiting for someone to enable the retention of not only the power steering, but the AC as well.....

As soon as that happens..... well, you know where we're headed...

MK Ultra

Poor ITR.

DC5s have no soul. Good luck when the bottom end loses oil pressure and that K-series scatters its weak guts all over the road.

From what I've seen, the K doesn't have a huge advantage over the B. The biggest advantage would be the larger bore, which allows for more valve area in the cylinder head. Of course the K series head flows better. It was designed for 2 litres displacement. Keep in mind, the B was originally designed with 1.6 litres displacement in mind, and the 81 mm bore severely limits valve area.

However, the K-series has a terrible exhaust port design, in which the 1 and 4 exhaust ports are doglegged to make room for a frigging oil passage (this is part of how they got the K smaller and lighter than the B; by making engineering compromises). It also has a really lousy intake manifold design, in which the incoming charge must make a near-90-degree turn to get from the plenum to the runners.

Then there's the questionable bottom-end oiling. Many say a baffled oil pan solves this problem, but personally, it doesn't make me confident that the K is a "more reliable" motor than the B. I know how reliable the B is.

And in my own experience, the most powerful K I've ever seen made 260 whp on a dynapack, which reads about 10 whp higher than a dynojet. The most powerful B-series I've ever seen made 247 whp on a dynojet. An effective difference of 3 whp. Not exactly earth-shattering.

Does the K have the potential to make more power? Sure. It's a bigger motor and the B will never be able to run valves as large as the K's. But the K-series isn't unquestionably better than the B. It's a compromise. It has some design features that are better, and many that are worse.


Modified by MK Ultra at 6:53 PM 12/6/2004

BS 22

ahhhhhhhh nice!!!

ITRbroham

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MK Ultra &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Poor ITR.

DC5s have no soul. Good luck when the bottom end loses oil pressure and that K-series scatters its weak guts all over the road.

From what I've seen, the K doesn't have a huge advantage over the B. The biggest advantage would be the larger bore, which allows for more valve area in the cylinder head. Of course the K series head flows better. It was designed for 2 litres displacement. Keep in mind, the B was originally designed with 1.6 litres displacement in mind, and the 81 mm bore severely limits valve area.

However, the K-series has a terrible exhaust port design, in which the 1 and 4 exhaust ports are doglegged to make room for a frigging oil passage (this is part of how they got the K smaller and lighter than the B; by making engineering compromises). It also has a really lousy intake manifold design, in which the incoming charge must make a near-90-degree turn to get from the plenum to the runners.

Then there's the questionable bottom-end oiling. Many say a baffled oil pan solves this problem, but personally, it doesn't make me confident that the K is a "more reliable" motor than the B. I know how reliable the B is.

And in my own experience, the most powerful K I've ever seen made 260 whp on a dynapack, which reads about 10 whp higher than a dynojet. The most powerful B-series I've ever seen made 247 whp on a dynojet. An effective difference of 3 whp. Not exactly earth-shattering.

Does the K have the potential to make more power? Sure. It's a bigger motor and the B will never be able to run valves as large as the K's. But the K-series isn't unquestionably better than the B. It's a compromise. It has some design features that are better, and many that are worse.


Modified by MK Ultra at 6:53 PM 12/6/2004</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm glad to see someone else who is not caught up in the hype. I'd gladly keep the b-series reliability over k-series power. Especially if I tracked my car. I can just see it now, "Why do I need that baffled oil pan, it's t00 expensive" And then b00m!

I also like to add that the K-series oiling problem would only be made worse by ITR owners who are no doubt "rev happy". From what I have seen from pioneering K20 owners and RSX drivers, the stock bottom end does not like to be revved past 8500 RPM.

K20DC2R

since there is a new motor out i never would expect everyone to love it and get it.... no doubt that the b is a legend...but theres a new kid on the block and its the k..im sure honda didnt put years of r&d just to make a shiter motor...imo i love the K...but yeah it dosent belong in our cars but **** it....if u can afford do it.....how can anyone knock it without tryin it..! if its wrong or not its not its gunna be done.....

p.s i love 6th gear........laters......


i-vtec do you?

just my 2 cents

howl

iTrader: (3)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by VtecWhore &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i-vtec do you?</TD></TR></TABLE>

hehe...sorry dude, but that was cheesy.

K20DC2R

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by pr0ns74r &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

hehe...sorry dude, but that was cheesy. </TD></TR></TABLE>


oh well...foc it...... i should change my name to i-vtecwhore

Nikos

I wouldn't expect anything less from the ITR crowd. Most of you guys has pretty much exhausted the b series.. 99% of questions already been answered and so on.

The k24a /k20a2 head combo is like nothing we have seen before. A stock type S head, will fit directly on a stock k24a CR-V block. Because the k24a longlbocks are in the accord, crv, element their price is around $1000+. Check on
http://www.car-parts.com if you don't believe me. That combination with a 5 speed or 6 speed tranny makes good power.

A stock k24a longblock (wihtout the type s head) makes around 160Hp/160torque with a basic hondata map. Yes, the redline is low but that doesn't mean much to me personally.

A stock k20a2 swap is also an option because with good tuning it can reach 220whp. (dtr-fab did it on a type s motor with some mild head porting and many dyno runs)

So we have the $8000 LSD K20a, the non lsd $5500+ type S swap, and the cheaper k24a etc....

A guy from honda tech by the name Hondog, has a drag K20A EG. The car runs on a stock motor with ITBS. His goal is to reach high tens before the season is over in New Zealand. His best run to date is 11.8 sec but with better header and tuning he is hoping to go lower. I dont know about you, but if an ITB stock k20a R motor makes it into the 10s , in my book there is really nothing to argue about...

A $110,000 911 turbo does the 1/4 mile in 11.3 or something.

here are some pics of the car






Also here's a video of Derek Steven's (one of hondata's owners) honda challenge car. Hondata's EG/K20A from the Super Street/Eurotuner Time Attack at Buttonwillow in mid Nov.


http://www.hondata.net/taflyinglap2.wmv 17mb

Not to like it is one thing, but putting it down is just wrong IMO... If a yugo with a C5 was fun to drive, so be it... I would rather take the bus

Alexander

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Nikos &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"></TD></TR></TABLE>

Holy CRAP that looks like it came that way from the factory.

Time have changed

MK Ultra

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by VtecWhore &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">im sure honda didnt put years of r&d just to make a shiter motor</TD></TR></TABLE>

How can you be sure of such an assertion without actually examining torn down versions of both motors. That's a logical fallacy.

I would love the K-series if it were better than the B-series in every respect, but the fact is that it is not.

Now read carefully. I am not saying the K is a total piece of ****. It incorporates many design features I wish the B had, such as roller rockers, 86x86 bore/stroke, larger valve area and a vastly improved ECU.

But in designing the K, Honda did make some pretty significant engineering compromises, some of which I mentioned in my previous post. What you have to understand is that Honda designed this motor as a replacement for almost all of their four-cylinders (exceptions being the D-series in the Civic and the F-series in the S2000). And herein lies the source of many of the engineering compromises. The VTEC B-series was designed as nothing but a performance motor, hence the uncompromised port layout, straighter intake manifold and better bottom-end oiling. It was not expected to be used for more pedestrian applications, and therefore cramming everything into the smallest possible package was not a priority as it was with the K. Remember, a few extra pounds and a slightly larger package is a worthwhile compromise in performance applications when the payoff is straight ports and an optimised intake manifold.

In the end, the K does have the potential to produce a little more power than the B, but that's not because it's a better design; it's because it has more displacement and valve area, and more precise control over timing and fuel maps. The ECU is the only real technological reason for the K producing more power. Everything else is a matter of scale (in this case, the size of the cylinders and valves).

Personally, I don't think the compromises were worth it. Honda could have made a much better performance engine had they been willing to accept a few more pounds and a larger package, or had they been willing to design two seperate engines: one to replace the B-series and another to replace the H-series and SOHC F-series.

But by all means, keep hyping the Ks. Maybe someday people will steal DC5s instead of Integras if they become more coveted than the Bs.

Oh, and I think a sixth cog is nothing more than a few unnecessary pounds. Five forward ratios are plenty for me.

whatVTEC

now take that bitch to the track

ITRbroham

MK Ultra speaketh the truth!

BTW, didn't Derek Stevens already have K20A grenade itself on him during a race? Not hating just asking.

Nikos

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MK Ultra &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
In the end, the K does have the potential to produce a little more power than the B, </TD></TR></TABLE>

A little more power.... I guess it depends on the eyes on the beholder

If you have a All Motor B series engine or you are thinking about buying one, it is a no brainer for me. If you are in the quest for power, and more all motor powera K20a will give you more power and will cost less and basically where an average B series setup ends, a K setup begins.

Let;s take a look at this B series setup

b18c1 w/ a.e.b.s. t-sleeves
86mm ross pistons 12.5:1 compession
manley rods
a.e.b.s. main/head studs
b16 head with stage 7 d.p.r. port work
welded and reshaped chambers
ferrerra valves
dpr valve springs w/ crower retainers
crower custum ground camshafts
hytech header (thick tubing)
toda cam gears/toda timing belt
rc 440cc injectors
ericks racing 72mm throttle body
type r mainfold port matched to head
toda flywheel
msd digital 7
wahlbro 255 fuel pump
cometic head gasket
hondata intake manifold gasket
hondata s200
p28 ecu
93 gsr cable tranny
xs fuel pressure reguator
pro drive oil pump gear
moroso oil pan


Here;s the dyno run



220 whp /148 tq

The cost list the owner gave out looks like this.

COST DOESN"T ACCOUNT FOR THE INITIAL ENGINE, TRANNY, LABOR,

a.e.b.s. sleeves-800
a.e.b.s. head and main studs-180
ross pistons 12.5:1 86mm-600
manley rods-495
dpr stage 7 head-2300
valves-300
cams-900
cam gears-300
toda timing belt-150
hytech header-1400
rc injectors-225
intake manifold-160
ericks racing throttlebody-300
pro drive oil pump gear-300
moroso oil pan-200
moroso oil pickup-80
hondata-400
balance&blueprinting 250

$9,285 again without labor install, gaskets, etc...


Like I said, it is a no brainer to me. This b series motor still has some potential but it is very limited...

Rob Dizzle

if you think the k20a doesnt make that much more power over a completely rebuilt b-series you need to get yourself out of 2002 and go outside the itr forum some more.

MK Ultra

A good and entirely valid post, except that doesn't represent the absolute pinnacle of the B's potential.

One of my closest friends is a very experienced Honda builder, as well as a Hondata dealer. In fact, Doug MacMillan flew him out to California to help him develop the first K-series programmes. And I've watched him get more power than that from a motor that was not quite as extensively modified as the one you give as an example. Just off the top of my head, it had:

B18C5 block
Golden Eagle sleeves, 85 mm (IIRC)
Arias pistons, ~12.3:1 CR
Carillo rods
Portflow P&P B17A head, no welding done on the combustion chambers
Stainless steel valves (oversized, but I forgot by how much)
Toda C cams
Toda cam gears
RC 440 cc injectors
Stock head gasket
Hondata IM gasket
Custom fabricated 4-1 header w/3" outlet
Custom fabricated 3" exhaust
Hondata S200

That's just what I can remember, I'm sure I'm missing some things, and I have no clue as to how much money ended up in it. That motor made 247 whp on a dynojet. I only wish I had the graph.

Now this is, of course, and apples/oranges comparison, since to be perfectly valid both motors would have to be dynoed on the same dynomometer and on the same day. But regardless, it sure as hell was making more than 220 whp. And there are a few people on this board who have gotten more than 220 whp out of B-series motors as well. So I don't think it's entirely accurate to say the K begins where the B runs out.

MK Ultra

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bob-DC2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if you think the k20a doesnt make that much more power over a completely rebuilt b-series you need to get yourself out of 2002 and go outside the itr forum some more.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I've remained largely outside the ITR forum for the last 18 months, and what I need to do is study for my political philosophy exam instead of discussing stupid stuff like engines.

Rob Dizzle

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MK Ultra &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Now this is, of course, and apples/oranges comparison, since to be perfectly valid both motors would have to be dynoed on the same dynomometer and on the same day. But regardless, it sure as hell was making more than 220 whp. And there are a few people on this board who have gotten more than 220 whp out of B-series motors as well. So I don't think it's entirely accurate to say the K begins where the B runs out. </TD></TR></TABLE>
So I dont get your post at all.
That is a phat chunk of change for that built motor.
Versus just looking at the hp aspect of a stock k20a with bolt ons. there is decent difference.

there are alot of other nicer factors that no one is bringing up.

as with all things, its a matter of compromise and what is best for your situations. I think its pretty lame that people say you shouldnt ruin an itr with a dc5 motor. if everything lines up right, it passes smog, makes more power earlier in the power band, has OEM reliabilty, dont have to lose out on drivability for power, then why would you go with a b series if say your motor blew up and you needed a replacement.

this is going to end up a long *** post with no real conclusion. however i see people on the drag strip and RR tracks hauling serious *** with k powered cars.

92TypeR

Weak bottom end is a major downfall of the K. Sustained high revvs are not reliable in stock form, many RR'ers know this, and many K-tuners as well. Most RR'ers who run a K-series in their car shift at or below 8000 rpms to keep the engine in one piece. I dont know if tearing the block down just to match the reliability a stock B18C is worth the extra potential the K-series offers. Of course my mindset is that of a typical RR'er who could care less if the K can make gobs of power, because in the end, a DC2R with 8000 invested into suspension and braking, will spit out way faster laptimes than a DC2R with 8000 invested into a K swap. For the drag racers, sure the potential of the K-series is very tempting. Dollar for dollar, the K-series will outperform the B-series when it comes to modifications. But then again, I own a DC2R. If I wanted to build a drag car, I'd buy a 1g dsm.

Nonetheless, the car looks good and will be a blast to drive.

CTREGSIX

I understand where Nikos is coming from. I have seen an all-motor K20EG with just ITB's, headers, cams and exhaust and i rode in it and it was like riding in a 12.5:1 b series. The power is great and the i-vtec sounds bad *** with the itb's