Which swap should I do: H22 Euro Accord TypeR or jdm b18c5 motor?
12-28-2004, 08:32 PM
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Which swap should I do: H22 Euro Accord TypeR or jdm b18c5 motor?
Alhough the H22 will be harder to put in, the costs for the two seem fairly the same. Which one will yield more power and better times if swapped into an eg hatch?
12-28-2004, 08:34 PM
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Re: Which swap should I do: H22 Euro Accord TypeR or jdm b18c5 motor? (Fonzo)
sit down and search for parts you would want to put on it and then decide
12-29-2004, 06:12 AM
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Re: Which swap should I do: H22 Euro Accord TypeR or jdm b18c5 motor? (civictildeath)
Assuming that both motors were kept fairly stock? Just need some opinions to help me decide. I don't want to go through the trouble of the h22 euro swap if the b18c5 will yeild faster times.
12-29-2004, 06:16 AM
#5
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Re: Which swap should I do: H22 Euro Accord TypeR or jdm b18c5 motor? (Fonzo)
I own a B18C5 swap and although I'm not a fan of the H22A I'd have to say that the Euro R H22A will be faster than a B18C5.
I'd never do a regular H22A (and trust me this **** has been debated sooooo many times) but the Euro R is bad-*** provided you get the complete swap with tranny, etc.
If you want better balance and 100% plug and play, bolt-in with all OE parts installation then the B18C5 is what you want.
I think the B18C5 swap will be cheaper too after you factor in the custom parts needed for the Euro R swap.
I'd never do a regular H22A (and trust me this **** has been debated sooooo many times) but the Euro R is bad-*** provided you get the complete swap with tranny, etc.
If you want better balance and 100% plug and play, bolt-in with all OE parts installation then the B18C5 is what you want.
I think the B18C5 swap will be cheaper too after you factor in the custom parts needed for the Euro R swap.
12-29-2004, 07:04 AM
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Re: Which swap should I do: H22 Euro Accord TypeR or jdm b18c5 motor? (B18C5-EH2)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18C5-EH2 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I own a B18C5 swap and although I'm not a fan of the H22A I'd have to say that the Euro R H22A will be faster than a B18C5.
I'd never do a regular H22A (and trust me this **** has been debated sooooo many times) but the Euro R is bad-*** provided you get the complete swap with tranny, etc.
If you want better balance and 100% plug and play, bolt-in with all OE parts installation then the B18C5 is what you want.
I think the B18C5 swap will be cheaper too after you factor in the custom parts needed for the Euro R swap.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Ugh.
The H22 euro R will be faster. The h22 is slightlyheavier and will increase understeer in the front of your car. You will not notice it at all. The h22 will be more fun for daily driving simply b/c of much more wtq and a much fatter power band.
The custom parts can all be had for cheap and the costs for both the swaps will be similar. However, without knowing your experience in the matter, you can swap a jdm h22, euror im, type-s cams and pistons (all essentially bolt on parts) and being making as much or more power than the EuroR version for less money.
Oh and I'd know you'd never do an h22a tom, but your opinion is not fact.
By the way, original poster, after doing a normal jdm h22 swap, I would never do a B18c5 swap. The stock jdm h22 and b18c5 have extremely comparable quarter mile times, but the h22 has a nicer torque curve and is therefore, for me at least, more fun to drive.
I'd never do a regular H22A (and trust me this **** has been debated sooooo many times) but the Euro R is bad-*** provided you get the complete swap with tranny, etc.
If you want better balance and 100% plug and play, bolt-in with all OE parts installation then the B18C5 is what you want.
I think the B18C5 swap will be cheaper too after you factor in the custom parts needed for the Euro R swap.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Ugh.
The H22 euro R will be faster. The h22 is slightlyheavier and will increase understeer in the front of your car. You will not notice it at all. The h22 will be more fun for daily driving simply b/c of much more wtq and a much fatter power band.
The custom parts can all be had for cheap and the costs for both the swaps will be similar. However, without knowing your experience in the matter, you can swap a jdm h22, euror im, type-s cams and pistons (all essentially bolt on parts) and being making as much or more power than the EuroR version for less money.
Oh and I'd know you'd never do an h22a tom, but your opinion is not fact.
By the way, original poster, after doing a normal jdm h22 swap, I would never do a B18c5 swap. The stock jdm h22 and b18c5 have extremely comparable quarter mile times, but the h22 has a nicer torque curve and is therefore, for me at least, more fun to drive.
12-29-2004, 07:52 AM
#7
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Re: Which swap should I do: H22 Euro Accord TypeR or jdm b18c5 motor? (DarkKnight[DMD])
You missed the part where I said "The Euro R will be faster" didn't you?
Let's not drag the normal H22A into this, because then I'll have to dig up all those old posts about the H22A vs. B18C5 ****, etc. etc.
Let's not drag the normal H22A into this, because then I'll have to dig up all those old posts about the H22A vs. B18C5 ****, etc. etc.
Trending Topics
12-29-2004, 11:55 AM
#9
Re: Which swap should I do: H22 Euro Accord TypeR or jdm b18c5 motor? (B18C5-EH2)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18C5-EH2 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You missed the part where I said "The Euro R will be faster" didn't you?
Let's not drag the normal H22A into this, because then I'll have to dig up all those old posts about the H22A vs. B18C5 ****, etc. etc.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Dig them up.
I'd say go with a NORMAL H22 or EURO H22 over a B18C5. The cost of the H22 swap really isn't bad. All you need is mounts, why wouldn't you want better mounts over stock mounts anyways?
The C5 is over-rated in my opinion, I'd rather have a turbo B18B or B18C1 over a B18C5
Let's not drag the normal H22A into this, because then I'll have to dig up all those old posts about the H22A vs. B18C5 ****, etc. etc.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Dig them up.
I'd say go with a NORMAL H22 or EURO H22 over a B18C5. The cost of the H22 swap really isn't bad. All you need is mounts, why wouldn't you want better mounts over stock mounts anyways?
The C5 is over-rated in my opinion, I'd rather have a turbo B18B or B18C1 over a B18C5
12-29-2004, 12:04 PM
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Re: Which swap should I do: H22 Euro Accord TypeR or jdm b18c5 motor? (RotiEatter)
I have H22 civic currently.... have owned a b18c5 EG hatch... H22 is waaaay more fun, and was half the price
12-29-2004, 01:16 PM
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Re: Which swap should I do: H22 Euro Accord TypeR or jdm b18c5 motor? (B16B)
H22, IF you have to time and knowledge i'd do what he previously stated. get the USDM h22 ( because you can track mileage better) throw some type S cams and pistons and the euro R IM on it and call it a day. The only real reason to buy a euro R is for the tranny....
12-29-2004, 01:58 PM
#12
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Re: Which swap should I do: H22 Euro Accord TypeR or jdm b18c5 motor? (RotiEatter)
Originally Posted by RotiEatter
Dig them up.
Originally Posted by Me
Okay here's a few interesting links for you B18C5 vs. H22A guys.
This one is how my B18C5 hatch stakced up against an equally prepared H22A hatchback. It lists mods, weight reduction, etc. to show that both cars were truly equal in terms of bolt-ons, weight, LSD, slicks, etc.
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=290461
And here's the results of the 1/4 mile shhotout. Basically I ran 13.3 to his 13.7 and the H22A even had only one seat in it at the time.
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=290461
We both had the same exact 20'' slicks and both pulled the same 2.0 60 footers.
My impression from driving H22A civics is that they are not what everyone makes them out to be. Yes they feel torquey, but like others have said the torque makes it only feel quicker than it is, and I've never driven/ridden in any H22A Civic that outpulled my basic bolt-ons B18C5 swap.
Also I'm not even touching the handling aspect. I don't care what anyone says, the extra 85lbs. can be felt in the H22A Civics i've driven. I'd have to run a crazy-*** ***-happy set-up to even feel decent in an H22A Civic IMO. The extra weight up front does make the car feel more nose heavy - this is from experience, not hearsay. True you can shed weight up front by relocating the battery, etc. but do the same to the B Civic and it will handle even that much better.
My shop did do an H22A with a knife-edged and balanced crank, and that ONE revs nicely with the lightweight flywheel, etc. but it still doesn't feel as quick as it should be IMO.
Again gearing kills the H22A. I posted the charts once before where it shows that the H22A has the same 1st and 5th gears as the B16A/ITR tranny, but the 2-4 gears are way spaced apart. the rpm drop too much when upshifting into 2nd. 3rd. and 4th, but when shifting from 4th to 5th the rpm barely drop - retarded IMO. I don't know why honda would not just give a it a taller 5th gear to be a hwy terror.
Also the H22A trannies have a 4.26FD instead of the closer, better 4.400 found stock in the B16A/B18C5 trannies.
Stock for stock with bolt-ons, I think the B18C5 is clearly better.
Overall fully built potential though, I think the H22A would be better. This is bascially given a virtually unlimited budget though, so IMO I'd rather do a mild B18C5 build.
Read those links and tell me what you guys think.
This one is how my B18C5 hatch stakced up against an equally prepared H22A hatchback. It lists mods, weight reduction, etc. to show that both cars were truly equal in terms of bolt-ons, weight, LSD, slicks, etc.
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=290461
And here's the results of the 1/4 mile shhotout. Basically I ran 13.3 to his 13.7 and the H22A even had only one seat in it at the time.
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=290461
We both had the same exact 20'' slicks and both pulled the same 2.0 60 footers.
My impression from driving H22A civics is that they are not what everyone makes them out to be. Yes they feel torquey, but like others have said the torque makes it only feel quicker than it is, and I've never driven/ridden in any H22A Civic that outpulled my basic bolt-ons B18C5 swap.
Also I'm not even touching the handling aspect. I don't care what anyone says, the extra 85lbs. can be felt in the H22A Civics i've driven. I'd have to run a crazy-*** ***-happy set-up to even feel decent in an H22A Civic IMO. The extra weight up front does make the car feel more nose heavy - this is from experience, not hearsay. True you can shed weight up front by relocating the battery, etc. but do the same to the B Civic and it will handle even that much better.
My shop did do an H22A with a knife-edged and balanced crank, and that ONE revs nicely with the lightweight flywheel, etc. but it still doesn't feel as quick as it should be IMO.
Again gearing kills the H22A. I posted the charts once before where it shows that the H22A has the same 1st and 5th gears as the B16A/ITR tranny, but the 2-4 gears are way spaced apart. the rpm drop too much when upshifting into 2nd. 3rd. and 4th, but when shifting from 4th to 5th the rpm barely drop - retarded IMO. I don't know why honda would not just give a it a taller 5th gear to be a hwy terror.
Also the H22A trannies have a 4.26FD instead of the closer, better 4.400 found stock in the B16A/B18C5 trannies.
Stock for stock with bolt-ons, I think the B18C5 is clearly better.
Overall fully built potential though, I think the H22A would be better. This is bascially given a virtually unlimited budget though, so IMO I'd rather do a mild B18C5 build.
Read those links and tell me what you guys think.
More points:
Originally Posted by Me
A few more things that make the H22A not so appealing for me personally:
1. Mount kits.
I have seen various big-name mounts break on the 1988-1991 Civics with B16A swaps. From urethane coming out, to the actual mounts themselves breaking, I'm not a big fan of mount kits to begin with.
Imagine those same materials under the extra pressure from the added weight and torque of the H22A over the B16A.
The only engine that I'd go with a mount kit for is the K Series.
2. Permanent modifications to the frame/chassis of the vehicle
Wether it's cutting a hole for the shifter cables, or cutting the passenger side fram topside tranny mount off, I'd not like the idea of permanently cutting my car up for marginal hp gains over a B swap.
This makes going back to a stock engine for sale purposes more difficult.
3. Ground clearance
The H22A sits lower than the B series. This makes good headers harder to clear. As low as some peoples' cars sit, I'd doubt an H22A swap would clear speed bumps, etc.
4. Tranny
This is being covered by many people already, but like I already stated before the gear ratios suck in the H trannies.
5. Cable shifters
I do not like cable shifters at all. They are the same ones found in Accords, so they will always have that row-boat family car feel to them IMO. Plus I've known two guys that actually broke their cables on their shifters.
6. No supercharger option
A supercharged B series in a Civic runs awesome when they are tuned properly. I like the JRSC when Hondata tuned. I know a few ATL guys pushing 230whp+ on 10psi on their B18C1 JRSC set-ups.
The H22A barely fits as it is, and adding the JRSC is nearly impossible or totally impossible depending on who you ask or how much fabbing you're looking to do.
This might not mean anything to some people, but IMO it's nice to have all sorts of options.
7. Aftermarket support.
This will change some day, but until it does it still factors into my reasoning. B Series have everything from Dart blocks, deck plates, ITBs, headers galore that clear nicely, and the trannies have final drive sets, complere gears sets, etc. for the B series
8. Extra weight
Again you could shift some of the weight from under the hood to the back, but the B will always have the advantage in the handling department, just like the D series engines will always handle better than the B series stuff.
Now for those that have seen me posting in the various B vs. H topics, you probably recall that I've actually toyed with the idea of selling off the B16A2 in my fiancee's car and undertaking an H22A swap. I work at a shop, so the labor would be nothing major for me, but I'm still torn about it even though the H22A would surely trounce the B16A2 in both power and torque.
The mods to the car and the sacrifices in handling and power steering (I've seen it done in the EK, but not the EG) aren't worth it to me IMO. I know A/C can be retained, but it''s a bit of a pain in the ***.
1. Mount kits.
I have seen various big-name mounts break on the 1988-1991 Civics with B16A swaps. From urethane coming out, to the actual mounts themselves breaking, I'm not a big fan of mount kits to begin with.
Imagine those same materials under the extra pressure from the added weight and torque of the H22A over the B16A.
The only engine that I'd go with a mount kit for is the K Series.
2. Permanent modifications to the frame/chassis of the vehicle
Wether it's cutting a hole for the shifter cables, or cutting the passenger side fram topside tranny mount off, I'd not like the idea of permanently cutting my car up for marginal hp gains over a B swap.
This makes going back to a stock engine for sale purposes more difficult.
3. Ground clearance
The H22A sits lower than the B series. This makes good headers harder to clear. As low as some peoples' cars sit, I'd doubt an H22A swap would clear speed bumps, etc.
4. Tranny
This is being covered by many people already, but like I already stated before the gear ratios suck in the H trannies.
5. Cable shifters
I do not like cable shifters at all. They are the same ones found in Accords, so they will always have that row-boat family car feel to them IMO. Plus I've known two guys that actually broke their cables on their shifters.
6. No supercharger option
A supercharged B series in a Civic runs awesome when they are tuned properly. I like the JRSC when Hondata tuned. I know a few ATL guys pushing 230whp+ on 10psi on their B18C1 JRSC set-ups.
The H22A barely fits as it is, and adding the JRSC is nearly impossible or totally impossible depending on who you ask or how much fabbing you're looking to do.
This might not mean anything to some people, but IMO it's nice to have all sorts of options.
7. Aftermarket support.
This will change some day, but until it does it still factors into my reasoning. B Series have everything from Dart blocks, deck plates, ITBs, headers galore that clear nicely, and the trannies have final drive sets, complere gears sets, etc. for the B series
8. Extra weight
Again you could shift some of the weight from under the hood to the back, but the B will always have the advantage in the handling department, just like the D series engines will always handle better than the B series stuff.
Now for those that have seen me posting in the various B vs. H topics, you probably recall that I've actually toyed with the idea of selling off the B16A2 in my fiancee's car and undertaking an H22A swap. I work at a shop, so the labor would be nothing major for me, but I'm still torn about it even though the H22A would surely trounce the B16A2 in both power and torque.
The mods to the car and the sacrifices in handling and power steering (I've seen it done in the EK, but not the EG) aren't worth it to me IMO. I know A/C can be retained, but it''s a bit of a pain in the ***.
https://honda-tech.com/zero...age=2
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So I suppose the fiber-reinforced, non borable cylinder walls add to all of that potential too, eh C A T?
Also you cannot run forged pistons in those fiber-reinforced cylinders either.
I'd never use those closed deck blocks to try and bolster an argument on why the H22A is superior to any other engine design, because the first time something happens to those cylinder walls you're pretty much done or having to install full sleeves from the likes of Dart, Golden Eagle, etc.
You make some good points, but if all of your points pan out then why aren't we seeing more RESULTS with the H22A then?
Why don't the noraml guys, like the ECHC guys running on road courses run the H22A instead of the B series? They are allowed to run whatever engines they want pretty much.
Why are the quickest all-motor cars B series? Why are the majority of the quickest drag cars B series and not H series?
Now I will concede that in terms of overall potential with an unlimited budget that the H22A has potential over the B18C5, but not the Bseries in general because of the Dart B blocks and the deck riser, custom cranks, etc. out there for the B series platform. Yes I'm kind of cheating by bringing custom B blocks into the equation, but Poison and a few others are trying to give examples of the most extreme H series build-ups and the fact is that there are B blocks that can match the H blocks in terms of displacement since there are taller B clocks being made these days.
Breaking the entire swap down and comparing JUST the engine is silly IMO. Yes again I agree that the H22A has more potential than a B18C5 in terms of engine alone, but you cannot pick and choose nearly as many tranny combos for the H like you can the B - that is a fact that you can try and make light of by saying it's :"just the engine" we're comparing, but if that were the case I could introduce another topic comparing the F20C and the B18C5 or H22A and completely neglect the fact that the tranny will be a bitch to figure out.
I guess the topic itself is pretty vague. I would have liked to have known the topic starter's intentions, budget, etc. because honestly there are some cases where I'd recommened an H22a over a B18C5. Would you like to hear those?
1. Budget
If someone says that he simply cannot afford the extra coin for the B18C5, I'd not tell him "save up more" unless he says he wants to leave it bone stock and do a lot of auto-X and road racing
2. If the car is relatively "heavy" to begin with.
I think a B18C5 swap into a 4-door GS-R would be kind of silly given that the H22A does make more torque. Same goes for a 4-door Civic, etc. IMO.
3. If the person says all he cares about is having a nice around town swap with some grint and doesn't care about being Billy Drag/Road racer, etc.
I'm sure there's a few more, but honestly I guess from what I've seen around here in Georgia and experinced from driving a few H22A Civics and driving my R swap for three years and driving 3-4 other friends' R swaps, I'd honestly recommened the B18C5 over the H22A in most cases.
I know we're talking potential vs. potential, but what do you guys think about stock vs. stock? Like stock with normal i/h/e bolt-ons, etc?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
WHEE!
Shall I go on?
12-29-2004, 05:15 PM
#13
Honda-Tech Member
Re: Which swap should I do: H22 Euro Accord TypeR or jdm b18c5 motor? (B18C5-EH2)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18C5-EH2 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'll race any bolt-ons normal H22A here in GA - name the strip and time as soon as the strips open up bro.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Tom, I will fly up and prep Kabir's (rotieatter) for this. If he wants to do it.
Consider this, I have h22a bolt-on hatches running faster then your slick times with more wieght (mot that much). Not saying kabir's car will do that or beat you.
I will be back later to start with the "proof" you have.
Tom, I will fly up and prep Kabir's (rotieatter) for this. If he wants to do it.
Consider this, I have h22a bolt-on hatches running faster then your slick times with more wieght (mot that much). Not saying kabir's car will do that or beat you.
I will be back later to start with the "proof" you have.
12-29-2004, 05:22 PM
#14
Honda-Tech Member
Re: Which swap should I do: H22 Euro Accord TypeR or jdm b18c5 motor? (B18C5-EH2)
What I have always wondered was, what were the trap speeds on the h22a civic when you ran it? Also, one h22a civic run does not mean that all other h22a/civics runt that time as well. I have seen plenty of b18c5 eg's run in the 14's. There are wayyyyyy too many variables that not one single motor is the same.
BTW, to save money, I would copycat the Euro R as much as possible and parts can be had for very cheap. Instead of spending 1500 dollars on a Euro tranny I would purchase houseman custom gears for less.
As far as the weight issue, I highly doubt most of us can even drive well enough to take advantage of the lightweightedness of the B-series swap.
Just to let everyone know, I spent 2900 dollars on my h22a, including the complete swap. this also includes clutch, fuel pump, pressure reg, axles, supplies, BS, etc...
It is your money man, if you like some sweet dang good torque from a 4 cylinder get the H, btw which no NA B-series has done for me. Not bashing on b18's, heck I used to love them until I rode in them and the pull was not there, I am a "torque" guy.
Last but not least, the only way I would do another hybrid Honda is K-series, don't b18c5's cost the same...hmmmm?
BTW, to save money, I would copycat the Euro R as much as possible and parts can be had for very cheap. Instead of spending 1500 dollars on a Euro tranny I would purchase houseman custom gears for less.
As far as the weight issue, I highly doubt most of us can even drive well enough to take advantage of the lightweightedness of the B-series swap.
Just to let everyone know, I spent 2900 dollars on my h22a, including the complete swap. this also includes clutch, fuel pump, pressure reg, axles, supplies, BS, etc...
It is your money man, if you like some sweet dang good torque from a 4 cylinder get the H, btw which no NA B-series has done for me. Not bashing on b18's, heck I used to love them until I rode in them and the pull was not there, I am a "torque" guy.
Last but not least, the only way I would do another hybrid Honda is K-series, don't b18c5's cost the same...hmmmm?
12-29-2004, 05:32 PM
#15
Honda-Tech Member
Re: Which swap should I do: H22 Euro Accord TypeR or jdm b18c5 motor? (Pat McGroin)
One last thing, B18c5-eh2, don't throw the ground clearance crap around or the cons of such a swap, I remember when you were nut-hugging the idea of a k20 swap and those swaps do not have great ground clearance either. I guess one day the light will shine upon you, and you will realize the h22a swap isn't such a bad swap as you make it out to be.
I will point out that some of the cons, to certain swaps, will appear miniscule to some, the underlying factor, idea, what have you, is that this swapping hooplah is a matter of personal preference or opinion.
Get what you want!
Damn these H-series VS B-series discussions get me heated. I'm all for Honda, and I love that our engines have the type of research and development behimd them that not many can copy or perhaps, learn from.
I will point out that some of the cons, to certain swaps, will appear miniscule to some, the underlying factor, idea, what have you, is that this swapping hooplah is a matter of personal preference or opinion.
Get what you want!
Damn these H-series VS B-series discussions get me heated. I'm all for Honda, and I love that our engines have the type of research and development behimd them that not many can copy or perhaps, learn from.
12-29-2004, 05:49 PM
#16
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Re: Which swap should I do: H22 Euro Accord TypeR or jdm b18c5 motor? (B18C5-EH2)
Originally Posted by B18C5-EH2
Okay here's a few interesting links for you B18C5 vs. H22A guys.
This one is how my B18C5 hatch stakced up against an equally prepared H22A hatchback. It lists mods, weight reduction, etc. to show that both cars were truly equal in terms of bolt-ons, weight, LSD, slicks, etc.
One anedoctal experience doesn't prove anything. After all I ran a 14.6 in my coupe with a 2.2 60ft, and my friend (only 50lbs less than me) ran a 14.1 + 2mph with the same 2.2 60ft in my own car! (flame away, i know i can't drive)
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=290461
And here's the results of the 1/4 mile shhotout. Basically I ran 13.3 to his 13.7 and the H22A even had only one seat in it at the time.
One anedoctal experience doesn't prove anything.
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=290461
We both had the same exact 20'' slicks and both pulled the same 2.0 60 footers.
One anedoctal experience doesn't prove anything. After all I ran a 14.6 in my coupe with a 2.2 60ft, and my friend (only 50lbs less than me) ran a 14.1 + 2mph with the same 2.2 60ft in my own car! (flame away, i know i can't drive)
My impression from driving H22A civics is that they are not what everyone makes them out to be. Yes they feel torquey, but like others have said the torque makes it only feel quicker than it is, and I've never driven/ridden in any H22A Civic that outpulled my basic bolt-ons B18C5 swap.
Also I'm not even touching the handling aspect. I don't care what anyone says, the extra 85lbs. can be felt in the H22A Civics i've driven. I'd have to run a crazy-*** ***-happy set-up to even feel decent in an H22A Civic IMO. The extra weight up front does make the car feel more nose heavy - this is from experience, not hearsay. True you can shed weight up front by relocating the battery, etc. but do the same to the B Civic and it will handle even that much better.
THere have been countless people who have tracked h22s only to be pleasently surprised that the extra <u> 50-60lbs </u> isn't bad. Can you say rear sway bar?
My shop did do an H22A with a knife-edged and balanced crank, and that ONE revs nicely with the lightweight flywheel, etc. but it still doesn't feel as quick as it should be IMO. My own h22 revs up extremely quick with just the balance shaft belt removed, I'm sure with a lightweight flywheel and a <u>good</u> knife edged and balanced crank the thing would spin up retarded
Again gearing kills the H22A. I posted the charts once before where it shows that the H22A has the same 1st and 5th gears as the B16A/ITR tranny, but the 2-4 gears are way spaced apart. the rpm drop too much when upshifting into 2nd. 3rd. and 4th, but when shifting from 4th to 5th the rpm barely drop - retarded IMO. Retarded? Hmm, If I'm reaching the limit of my top speed shifting from fourth to fifth wouldn't I want the rpm drop to fall just before my peak power? Those japs are smarter than you think I don't know why honda would not just give a it a taller 5th gear to be a hwy terror.
My fifth gear goes will go up to about 150mph at 7400rpm. More then enough to kill yourself.
Also the H22A trannies have a 4.26FD instead of the closer, better 4.400 found stock in the B16A/B18C5 trannies.
Stock for stock with bolt-ons, I think the B18C5 is clearly better. Ever see a bolton b18c5 pull 205whp on a DynoJet? Look up Corey in the prelude forum
Overall fully built potential though, I think the H22A would be better. This is bascially given a virtually unlimited budget though, so IMO I'd rather do a mild B18C5 build.
Read those links and tell me what you guys think.
Shall I go on?
Originally Posted by Tom
A few more things that make the H22A not so appealing for me personally:
1. Mount kits.
I have seen various big-name mounts break on the 1988-1991 Civics with B16A swaps. From urethane coming out, to the actual mounts themselves breaking, I'm not a big fan of mount kits to begin with.
Imagine those same materials under the extra pressure from the added weight and torque of the H22A over the B16A.
I think if Hasport or HCP had a real problem with this people would have made 100s of posts about it. I've been on H-T since 2002, I haven't seen a single thread myself (although I'm sure there a couple)
The only engine that I'd go with a mount kit for is the K Series.
That's not hypocritical at all, pffffft
2. Permanent modifications to the frame/chassis of the vehicle
Wether it's cutting a hole for the shifter cables, or cutting the passenger side fram topside tranny mount off, I'd not like the idea of permanently cutting my car up for marginal hp gains over a B swap.
This makes going back to a stock engine for sale purposes more difficult.
Let me guess, you'd do this for a k-series swap, but not an H-series too?
3. Ground clearance
The H22A sits lower than the B series. This makes good headers harder to clear. As low as some peoples' cars sit, I'd doubt an H22A swap would clear speed bumps, etc.
I've had mine dropped about 2 inches and I don't have a single dent in my header. I drive construction ridden I-95 to work every day 30 miles each way. Be careful, just like you would with anything you had dropped and you're fine
4. Tranny
This is being covered by many people already, but like I already stated before the gear ratios suck in the H trannies.
I'll give you that, but make one point, with the added tq from the H you'd only make the spinning worse with a quicker gear ratios
5. Cable shifters
I do not like cable shifters at all. They are the same ones found in Accords, so they will always have that row-boat family car feel to them IMO. Plus I've known two guys that actually broke their cables on their shifters.
Your opinion, not fact. I abuse my machines daily and I haven't had a single problem. Maybe they didn't route them correctly?
6. No supercharger option
A supercharged B series in a Civic runs awesome when they are tuned properly. I like the JRSC when Hondata tuned. I know a few ATL guys pushing 230whp+ on 10psi on their B18C1 JRSC set-ups.
The H22A barely fits as it is, and adding the JRSC is nearly impossible or totally impossible depending on who you ask or how much fabbing you're looking to do.
This might not mean anything to some people, but IMO it's nice to have all sorts of options.
Supercharger option? Who cares, a small turbo can be just as effective as a supercharger and a large turbo can make gobs of power with 2.2 liters of displacement
7. Aftermarket support.
This will change some day, but until it does it still factors into my reasoning. B Series have everything from Dart blocks, deck plates, ITBs, headers galore that clear nicely, and the trannies have final drive sets, complere gears sets, etc. for the B series
*Sigh* Things have changed. There are h22 itbs all over the place, headers out of your mind, and complete gear sets, you name it, it's there
8. Extra weight
Again you could shift some of the weight from under the hood to the back, but the B will always have the advantage in the handling department, just like the D series engines will always handle better than the B series stuff.
Beat a dead horse. Sacrifices are made in every kind of car, 50-60lbs is certainly not a major sacrifice.
Now for those that have seen me posting in the various B vs. H topics, you probably recall that I've actually toyed with the idea of selling off the B16A2 in my fiancee's car and undertaking an H22A swap. I work at a shop, so the labor would be nothing major for me, but I'm still torn about it even though the H22A would surely trounce the B16A2 in both power and torque. Happy for you! You should try it out, my woman loves the torquey feel of my big H
1. Mount kits.
I have seen various big-name mounts break on the 1988-1991 Civics with B16A swaps. From urethane coming out, to the actual mounts themselves breaking, I'm not a big fan of mount kits to begin with.
Imagine those same materials under the extra pressure from the added weight and torque of the H22A over the B16A.
I think if Hasport or HCP had a real problem with this people would have made 100s of posts about it. I've been on H-T since 2002, I haven't seen a single thread myself (although I'm sure there a couple)
The only engine that I'd go with a mount kit for is the K Series.
That's not hypocritical at all, pffffft
2. Permanent modifications to the frame/chassis of the vehicle
Wether it's cutting a hole for the shifter cables, or cutting the passenger side fram topside tranny mount off, I'd not like the idea of permanently cutting my car up for marginal hp gains over a B swap.
This makes going back to a stock engine for sale purposes more difficult.
Let me guess, you'd do this for a k-series swap, but not an H-series too?
3. Ground clearance
The H22A sits lower than the B series. This makes good headers harder to clear. As low as some peoples' cars sit, I'd doubt an H22A swap would clear speed bumps, etc.
I've had mine dropped about 2 inches and I don't have a single dent in my header. I drive construction ridden I-95 to work every day 30 miles each way. Be careful, just like you would with anything you had dropped and you're fine
4. Tranny
This is being covered by many people already, but like I already stated before the gear ratios suck in the H trannies.
I'll give you that, but make one point, with the added tq from the H you'd only make the spinning worse with a quicker gear ratios
5. Cable shifters
I do not like cable shifters at all. They are the same ones found in Accords, so they will always have that row-boat family car feel to them IMO. Plus I've known two guys that actually broke their cables on their shifters.
Your opinion, not fact. I abuse my machines daily and I haven't had a single problem. Maybe they didn't route them correctly?
6. No supercharger option
A supercharged B series in a Civic runs awesome when they are tuned properly. I like the JRSC when Hondata tuned. I know a few ATL guys pushing 230whp+ on 10psi on their B18C1 JRSC set-ups.
The H22A barely fits as it is, and adding the JRSC is nearly impossible or totally impossible depending on who you ask or how much fabbing you're looking to do.
This might not mean anything to some people, but IMO it's nice to have all sorts of options.
Supercharger option? Who cares, a small turbo can be just as effective as a supercharger and a large turbo can make gobs of power with 2.2 liters of displacement
7. Aftermarket support.
This will change some day, but until it does it still factors into my reasoning. B Series have everything from Dart blocks, deck plates, ITBs, headers galore that clear nicely, and the trannies have final drive sets, complere gears sets, etc. for the B series
*Sigh* Things have changed. There are h22 itbs all over the place, headers out of your mind, and complete gear sets, you name it, it's there
8. Extra weight
Again you could shift some of the weight from under the hood to the back, but the B will always have the advantage in the handling department, just like the D series engines will always handle better than the B series stuff.
Beat a dead horse. Sacrifices are made in every kind of car, 50-60lbs is certainly not a major sacrifice.
Now for those that have seen me posting in the various B vs. H topics, you probably recall that I've actually toyed with the idea of selling off the B16A2 in my fiancee's car and undertaking an H22A swap. I work at a shop, so the labor would be nothing major for me, but I'm still torn about it even though the H22A would surely trounce the B16A2 in both power and torque. Happy for you! You should try it out, my woman loves the torquey feel of my big H
Anyways, now to add two more cents of mine, I don't really care whether or not the guy gets a b18c5 or an h22a. Actually, I'd prefer him stick to b-series b/c the lack of attention helps keep the prices down for us.
12-29-2004, 07:40 PM
#17
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Re: Which swap should I do: H22 Euro Accord TypeR or jdm b18c5 motor? (B18C5-EH2)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18C5-EH2 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Basically I ran 13.3 to his 13.7 and the H22A
</TD></TR></TABLE>
most guys up here are running faster then that on street tires with less mods. What is your secret to going so slow?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
most guys up here are running faster then that on street tires with less mods. What is your secret to going so slow?
12-29-2004, 08:13 PM
#18
Honda-Tech Member
Re: Which swap should I do: H22 Euro Accord TypeR or jdm b18c5 motor? (B16B)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B16B »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
most guys up here are running faster then that on street tires with less mods. What is your secret to going so slow?</TD></TR></TABLE>
That made me chuckle.
most guys up here are running faster then that on street tires with less mods. What is your secret to going so slow?</TD></TR></TABLE>
That made me chuckle.
12-29-2004, 09:04 PM
#19
Re: Which swap should I do: H22 Euro Accord TypeR or jdm b18c5 motor? (Pat McGroin)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Pat McGroin »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
That made me chuckle.</TD></TR></TABLE>
And I as well.
That made me chuckle.</TD></TR></TABLE>
And I as well.
12-30-2004, 08:02 AM
#21
Re: Which swap should I do: H22 Euro Accord TypeR or jdm b18c5 motor? (93H22ACX)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 93H22ACX »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i wish i still had my h22 motor in my hatch 
....i want to join the fun</TD></TR></TABLE>
Why? The H22 makes the hatch way to heavy and I'm pretty sure the b18c5 is the cOoOOOoooolLllest motor everRrrr!
....i want to join the fun</TD></TR></TABLE>Why? The H22 makes the hatch way to heavy and I'm pretty sure the b18c5 is the cOoOOOoooolLllest motor everRrrr!
12-30-2004, 08:05 AM
#22
Former Moderator
Re: Which swap should I do: H22 Euro Accord TypeR or jdm b18c5 motor? (turbogixxer)
You guys can talk all the **** you want on my 1/4 mile times before tuning and on 2.0 60 footers at 1100ft. above sea level.
I pulled a 1.8 60 footer on my last run that night back in October of 2002 before my clutch fork broke. I had already trapped 104mph and ran 13.3 on a 2.0 60 footer, so for you 1/4 mile buffs knocking of .2 from a 13.3's 60 footer would put it somewhere in the 12.9 range.
Also noteworthy is that I had it tuned a few months later with a FPR/V-AFC and that netted me +2-whp in the midrange and +20 ft-lbs. of torque in the midrange because I had the A/F way too lean with my FPR adjustment. I'll dig up the before/after dyno chart if necessary.
Until you run side by side at the same strip, same night, etc. you have no room to talk ****.
I'll tell you what guys:
GET THE H22A - IT IS DEFINATELY BETTER THAN THE B18C5.
At this point I really don't care what the guy gets. I know for certain the Euro R will be faster, but I will not agree on the normal H22A based on my personal experiences from driving them and racing against them here in Georgia.
If you guys want to do some sort of a shoot-out this spring then by all means we can set it up.
I'm in GA, Rotti Eater is in GA - this could be settled pretty easily.
Actually I'd seriously like to ride in a local H22A that pulls good. I'm sure they can be quick, but I've never personally driven one that I liked. Someone please let me drive one that pulls good - that's all I'm asking!
I pulled a 1.8 60 footer on my last run that night back in October of 2002 before my clutch fork broke. I had already trapped 104mph and ran 13.3 on a 2.0 60 footer, so for you 1/4 mile buffs knocking of .2 from a 13.3's 60 footer would put it somewhere in the 12.9 range.
Also noteworthy is that I had it tuned a few months later with a FPR/V-AFC and that netted me +2-whp in the midrange and +20 ft-lbs. of torque in the midrange because I had the A/F way too lean with my FPR adjustment. I'll dig up the before/after dyno chart if necessary.
Until you run side by side at the same strip, same night, etc. you have no room to talk ****.
I'll tell you what guys:
GET THE H22A - IT IS DEFINATELY BETTER THAN THE B18C5.
At this point I really don't care what the guy gets. I know for certain the Euro R will be faster, but I will not agree on the normal H22A based on my personal experiences from driving them and racing against them here in Georgia.
If you guys want to do some sort of a shoot-out this spring then by all means we can set it up.
I'm in GA, Rotti Eater is in GA - this could be settled pretty easily.
Actually I'd seriously like to ride in a local H22A that pulls good. I'm sure they can be quick, but I've never personally driven one that I liked. Someone please let me drive one that pulls good - that's all I'm asking!
12-30-2004, 09:09 AM
#23
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Re: Which swap should I do: H22 Euro Accord TypeR or jdm b18c5 motor? (B18C5-EH2)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18C5-EH2 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You guys can talk all the **** you want on my 1/4 mile times before tuning and on 2.0 60 footers at 1100ft. above sea level.
I pulled a 1.8 60 footer on my last run that night back in October of 2002 before my clutch fork broke. I had already trapped 104mph and ran 13.3 on a 2.0 60 footer, so for you 1/4 mile buffs knocking of .2 from a 13.3's 60 footer would put it somewhere in the 12.9 range.
Also noteworthy is that I had it tuned a few months later with a FPR/V-AFC and that netted me +2-whp in the midrange and +20 ft-lbs. of torque in the midrange because I had the A/F way too lean with my FPR adjustment. I'll dig up the before/after dyno chart if necessary.
Until you run side by side at the same strip, same night, etc. you have no room to talk ****.
I'll tell you what guys:
GET THE H22A - IT IS DEFINATELY BETTER THAN THE B18C5.
At this point I really don't care what the guy gets. I know for certain the Euro R will be faster, but I will not agree on the normal H22A based on my personal experiences from driving them and racing against them here in Georgia.
If you guys want to do some sort of a shoot-out this spring then by all means we can set it up.
I'm in GA, Rotti Eater is in GA - this could be settled pretty easily.
Actually I'd seriously like to ride in a local H22A that pulls good. I'm sure they can be quick, but I've never personally driven one that I liked. Someone please let me drive one that pulls good - that's all I'm asking!
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Lol, it's ok man, I don't know about the rest of these h22 boys, but I'm just giving you a hard time. I know you can't ever back down from a good e-argument, especially not a h22vsb18c5 one. Kabir is a good guy, I'm sure he'll take you on and I'm sure you guys will be similar, but one thing to remember though, you've had countless amounts of time to get your setup to your liking and learn it, he's only had his for a cuople of months and has only driven it about 50 whole miles since the swap.
I pulled a 1.8 60 footer on my last run that night back in October of 2002 before my clutch fork broke. I had already trapped 104mph and ran 13.3 on a 2.0 60 footer, so for you 1/4 mile buffs knocking of .2 from a 13.3's 60 footer would put it somewhere in the 12.9 range.
Also noteworthy is that I had it tuned a few months later with a FPR/V-AFC and that netted me +2-whp in the midrange and +20 ft-lbs. of torque in the midrange because I had the A/F way too lean with my FPR adjustment. I'll dig up the before/after dyno chart if necessary.
Until you run side by side at the same strip, same night, etc. you have no room to talk ****.
I'll tell you what guys:
GET THE H22A - IT IS DEFINATELY BETTER THAN THE B18C5.
At this point I really don't care what the guy gets. I know for certain the Euro R will be faster, but I will not agree on the normal H22A based on my personal experiences from driving them and racing against them here in Georgia.
If you guys want to do some sort of a shoot-out this spring then by all means we can set it up.
I'm in GA, Rotti Eater is in GA - this could be settled pretty easily.
Actually I'd seriously like to ride in a local H22A that pulls good. I'm sure they can be quick, but I've never personally driven one that I liked. Someone please let me drive one that pulls good - that's all I'm asking!
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Lol, it's ok man, I don't know about the rest of these h22 boys, but I'm just giving you a hard time. I know you can't ever back down from a good e-argument, especially not a h22vsb18c5 one. Kabir is a good guy, I'm sure he'll take you on and I'm sure you guys will be similar, but one thing to remember though, you've had countless amounts of time to get your setup to your liking and learn it, he's only had his for a cuople of months and has only driven it about 50 whole miles since the swap.
12-30-2004, 10:25 AM
#24
Honda-Tech Member
Re: Which swap should I do: H22 Euro Accord TypeR or jdm b18c5 motor? (B18C5-EH2)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18C5-EH2 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> had already trapped 104mph and ran 13.3 on a 2.0 60 footer, so for you 1/4 mile buffs knocking of .2 from a 13.3's 60 footer would put it somewhere in the 12.9 range.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thats a rule of thumb. It does not mean it happens all the time. ****, you can even run slower with a better 60'.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18C5-EH2 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> you have no room to talk ****.</TD></TR></TABLE>
You are correct, either do you. Comparing two car (and only two cars) for the purpose of what swap is "better" is dumb. The only reason I will help kabir with his car is to possibly see you lose to a h22a/civic.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18C5-EH2 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">but I will not agree on the normal H22A based on my personal experiences from driving them and racing against them here in Georgia.</TD></TR></TABLE>
A b-series swap is alot more dumbass proof. Considering what you have to rewire things (injectors, alt, etc) that CAN make the output of the motor lower then what it should be putting out.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18C5-EH2 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Actually I'd seriously like to ride in a local H22A that pulls good. I'm sure they can be quick, but I've never personally driven one that I liked. Someone please let me drive one that pulls good - that's all I'm asking!
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I will try to get kabir's car running good. It matters the amount of time I have to play with it. It should be fast.
Pat McGroin made some GREAT points.
Thats a rule of thumb. It does not mean it happens all the time. ****, you can even run slower with a better 60'.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18C5-EH2 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> you have no room to talk ****.</TD></TR></TABLE>
You are correct, either do you. Comparing two car (and only two cars) for the purpose of what swap is "better" is dumb. The only reason I will help kabir with his car is to possibly see you lose to a h22a/civic.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18C5-EH2 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">but I will not agree on the normal H22A based on my personal experiences from driving them and racing against them here in Georgia.</TD></TR></TABLE>
A b-series swap is alot more dumbass proof. Considering what you have to rewire things (injectors, alt, etc) that CAN make the output of the motor lower then what it should be putting out.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18C5-EH2 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Actually I'd seriously like to ride in a local H22A that pulls good. I'm sure they can be quick, but I've never personally driven one that I liked. Someone please let me drive one that pulls good - that's all I'm asking!
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I will try to get kabir's car running good. It matters the amount of time I have to play with it. It should be fast.
Pat McGroin made some GREAT points.
12-30-2004, 10:35 AM
#25
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Re: Which swap should I do: H22 Euro Accord TypeR or jdm b18c5 motor? (turbogixxer)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by turbogixxer »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Pat McGroin made some GREAT points. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I made good points too, dick.
Pat McGroin made some GREAT points. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I made good points too, dick.