Revving an LS/VTEC, couple questions?
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Revving an LS/VTEC, couple questions?
I'm getting an Integra this weekend if all goes as planned and it has an LS/VTEC swap already in it. B18b block with JDM B16a head, GSR Tranny, Skunk2 IM, chipped P28 and so forth (other mods arent that important).
Now my question is.. It appears to have been built properly. But I keep hearing "DONT REV IT PAST 7000! IT'LL BLOW UP!" etc. I know this probably has some validity to it since I hear it often, but how much?
I am shooting for low 13's daily driven, but I'd like to keep it reliable and N/A if possible (maybe a 50 shot later if I build it up a bit). I'm only shooting for 13's, so I believe I can keep it reliable as well.
If the said statement is true, then what is the weak link in the block that keeps LS/VTEC users in fear of overrevving the motor? I have heard that it was the main bearings, but I've yet to talk to anyone who's delt with this.
Any info would be appreciated. You're also welcome to throw in any info on ls/vtec's in general if you would like.
Now my question is.. It appears to have been built properly. But I keep hearing "DONT REV IT PAST 7000! IT'LL BLOW UP!" etc. I know this probably has some validity to it since I hear it often, but how much?
I am shooting for low 13's daily driven, but I'd like to keep it reliable and N/A if possible (maybe a 50 shot later if I build it up a bit). I'm only shooting for 13's, so I believe I can keep it reliable as well.
If the said statement is true, then what is the weak link in the block that keeps LS/VTEC users in fear of overrevving the motor? I have heard that it was the main bearings, but I've yet to talk to anyone who's delt with this.
Any info would be appreciated. You're also welcome to throw in any info on ls/vtec's in general if you would like.
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Re: Revving an LS/VTEC, couple questions? (bew)
What kind of internals are in it now, that would be my decideing factor as to whether or not to take it to 8k daily.
#3
Re: Revving an LS/VTEC, couple questions? (bew)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bew »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Now my question is.. It appears to have been built properly. But I keep hearing "DONT REV IT PAST 7000! IT'LL BLOW UP!" etc. I know this probably has some validity to it since I hear it often, but how much?
I am shooting for low 13's daily driven, but I'd like to keep it reliable and N/A if possible (maybe a 50 shot later if I build it up a bit). I'm only shooting for 13's, so I believe I can keep it reliable as well. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Like what someone else said, what internals? With your setup, unless you have high compression and some cams (like PCT pistons and ITR cams), you probably won't see low 13s, but rather low 14s with your current setup, assuming that you have "stock" internals and stock cams. As for not revving past 7000 or it'll blow up, all depends on who built it. I've seen some that blow up because they didn't do the dowel pins correctly or plug up the oil hole on the head, causing the head gasket to blow, or even worse, hydro'd the motor. A stock LS block "can" go up to 8000 but I wouldn't sit up there at 8000 and not shift. Even still, the best thing to do is dyno tune your car... on my old LS/VTEC motor, I wasn't making anymore power after 7600 rpms, so that was my shift point. You said that it was "built properly" and people have different definitions of what's built "properly" and what isn't. But if everything is good, then you shouldn't see any problems taking it up to 7500-8000 rpms, but do it smartly.
Now my question is.. It appears to have been built properly. But I keep hearing "DONT REV IT PAST 7000! IT'LL BLOW UP!" etc. I know this probably has some validity to it since I hear it often, but how much?
I am shooting for low 13's daily driven, but I'd like to keep it reliable and N/A if possible (maybe a 50 shot later if I build it up a bit). I'm only shooting for 13's, so I believe I can keep it reliable as well. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Like what someone else said, what internals? With your setup, unless you have high compression and some cams (like PCT pistons and ITR cams), you probably won't see low 13s, but rather low 14s with your current setup, assuming that you have "stock" internals and stock cams. As for not revving past 7000 or it'll blow up, all depends on who built it. I've seen some that blow up because they didn't do the dowel pins correctly or plug up the oil hole on the head, causing the head gasket to blow, or even worse, hydro'd the motor. A stock LS block "can" go up to 8000 but I wouldn't sit up there at 8000 and not shift. Even still, the best thing to do is dyno tune your car... on my old LS/VTEC motor, I wasn't making anymore power after 7600 rpms, so that was my shift point. You said that it was "built properly" and people have different definitions of what's built "properly" and what isn't. But if everything is good, then you shouldn't see any problems taking it up to 7500-8000 rpms, but do it smartly.
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Re: Revving an LS/VTEC, couple questions? (Newman)
Thanks for the replies.. very helpful.
As for as getting into the 13's, I don't mind upgrading internals to get there. I just want to keep the car as reliable as possible, yet be moderately quick. I'm not shooting for any insane numbers cause I do know you can't have your cake and eat it too.
This is whats done to the LS/VTEC setup I'm getting tomorrow:
~120k on car, 7k on motor
when rebuilt:
NEW rods
NEW B16 pistons
all new gaskets, seal, bearings, wtc
NEW GSR oil pump
new timing belt, water pump, tensioner
JDM B16 head and cams
head was completely re-worked, new valve seals etc
Skunk2 ITR style intake manifold
ITR injectors
So when I said built "properly" I didn't mean BUILT, I just meant that he took the right path and used all new parts and had everything that could be an issue replaced first.
What would be a good internal setup to look into, to reach my goals of say a 13.2 on radials?
As for as getting into the 13's, I don't mind upgrading internals to get there. I just want to keep the car as reliable as possible, yet be moderately quick. I'm not shooting for any insane numbers cause I do know you can't have your cake and eat it too.
This is whats done to the LS/VTEC setup I'm getting tomorrow:
~120k on car, 7k on motor
when rebuilt:
NEW rods
NEW B16 pistons
all new gaskets, seal, bearings, wtc
NEW GSR oil pump
new timing belt, water pump, tensioner
JDM B16 head and cams
head was completely re-worked, new valve seals etc
Skunk2 ITR style intake manifold
ITR injectors
So when I said built "properly" I didn't mean BUILT, I just meant that he took the right path and used all new parts and had everything that could be an issue replaced first.
What would be a good internal setup to look into, to reach my goals of say a 13.2 on radials?
#5
Re: Revving an LS/VTEC, couple questions? (bew)
you can take it to 8k with the stock b16 head, drag radials are crap get real slicks and a big clutch and you could probably hit low 13's
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Re: Revving an LS/VTEC, couple questions? (h22 ef)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by h22 ef »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you can take it to 8k with the stock b16 head, drag radials are crap get real slicks and a big clutch and you could probably hit low 13's</TD></TR></TABLE>
Don't listen to this idiot, just because B16s can take 8000, doesn't mean you can slap the head on anything else and turn 8000. If I were to build an LS/VTEC, first I would shotpeen my LS rods, and modify them to accept VTEC motor rod bearings since these were meant to take the high RPM punishment. Get the crank balanced, make sure you're using a VTEC oil and water pump, and I don't see why you wouldn't be fine with that. Some of the things may be overkill, but think about it, you are trying to make an engine that was designed for 6700 RPM turn 8000+.
Don't listen to this idiot, just because B16s can take 8000, doesn't mean you can slap the head on anything else and turn 8000. If I were to build an LS/VTEC, first I would shotpeen my LS rods, and modify them to accept VTEC motor rod bearings since these were meant to take the high RPM punishment. Get the crank balanced, make sure you're using a VTEC oil and water pump, and I don't see why you wouldn't be fine with that. Some of the things may be overkill, but think about it, you are trying to make an engine that was designed for 6700 RPM turn 8000+.
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Re: Revving an LS/VTEC, couple questions? (CRX PAT)
Here is a forum I started a while ago. Just read the whole thing and it should answer all of your questions. A lot of good information on here!
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=469384
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=469384
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Re: Revving an LS/VTEC, couple questions? (Spoonin)
You need to have the bottom end balanced to rev past 7500 safe. You also need to replace the rod bolts with arp, that would make it safe to the 8500- 9k range. If you want to go higher then good aftermarket rods and pistons will be needed. I can safely rev my b20 to 10k but it cost me.
#10
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Re: Revving an LS/VTEC, couple questions? (CRX PAT)
You can't re-machine LS rods to take GSR/ITR bearings. The bearing is narrower, and if you tried to use this with the LS crank, you would have about 0 PSI oil pressure. You need to use the GSR/ITR crank with the narrower rods/bearings. And there is absolutely no advantage to using the B16 bearings over the LS ones, because they are 1 in the same.
I ran an LS/Vtec in my 98 EK for about 2 years, and it saw 9,000 rpm quite often. It also saw 8,500 for about 2 minutes in 5th gear on 2 seperate occasions. When I took out the motor to sell it, it still ran quite strong.
The bottom end was LS rods, beam polished, shot peened, re sized with ARP bolts, and re-balanced. The pistons were PR3s, and the bearings were re-used from the LS donor motor, as it came from a wreck that had about 5,000 miles on it. After plastigauging everything, the clearances were still quite good.
A properly bult LS/Vtec can live a long and pleasant life. The only real problem with the motor is the geometry. After beating on it for a while, the rings WILL start to lose their seal with the cylinder walls, as the rod/stroke ratio causes the pistons to be shoved quite hard into the cylinder walls, and the rings CAN'T live a long life under those conditons.
I ran an LS/Vtec in my 98 EK for about 2 years, and it saw 9,000 rpm quite often. It also saw 8,500 for about 2 minutes in 5th gear on 2 seperate occasions. When I took out the motor to sell it, it still ran quite strong.
The bottom end was LS rods, beam polished, shot peened, re sized with ARP bolts, and re-balanced. The pistons were PR3s, and the bearings were re-used from the LS donor motor, as it came from a wreck that had about 5,000 miles on it. After plastigauging everything, the clearances were still quite good.
A properly bult LS/Vtec can live a long and pleasant life. The only real problem with the motor is the geometry. After beating on it for a while, the rings WILL start to lose their seal with the cylinder walls, as the rod/stroke ratio causes the pistons to be shoved quite hard into the cylinder walls, and the rings CAN'T live a long life under those conditons.
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Re: Revving an LS/VTEC, couple questions? (Spoonin)
about 10k my roomate has over 20k.
You can use gsr bearings with ls rods and crank Jaker is wrong. you just need to have the rods modified rs machine can do it.
You can use gsr bearings with ls rods and crank Jaker is wrong. you just need to have the rods modified rs machine can do it.
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Re: Revving an LS/VTEC, couple questions? (TREVER)
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Re: Revving an LS/VTEC, couple questions? (TREVER)
Jaker, I thought VTEC rod bearings were larger in diameter than LS and B20 rod bearings. If you know that they are the same, than I would say the main limitation in turnining high RPM would be the crank. As long as it is balanced properly, and to higher RPM than your motor will ever see, I don't see why it would be a problem. I think the main reason you hear horror stories about LS/VTECs is because people forget this simple step.
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Re: Revving an LS/VTEC, couple questions? (TREVER)
If the only problem with frank motors (besides having a balanced rotating assembly) is the pistons pushing against the cylinder walls then just get chrome-moly rings for a better seal and do what Honda does with an undersquare motor, make the head flow more.
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Re: Revving an LS/VTEC, couple questions? (Spoonin)
There are no problems with the LSVTEC, there are just alot of issues that normally dont get addressed when building one.
The first and foremost one that I always like to preach is the usage of VTEC head studs and retorqueing them at a thousand miles.
Like Newman said, there are a lot of little things that can get fouled up either unintentionally or unknowingly during build up. Like the dowel pins or the cleaning out of the shavings that form when the line is drilled in the head for the vtec oil line. Or shavings in the rear oil passage from the tapping there if that new GE oil filter add on isnt being used.
You have VTEC pistons, the valve relief size is all too important when revving an LSVTEC high
As far as the bearings go, to the best of my knowledge, all bearings except the B18C1 and C5 are 19.5 mm in width as opposed to 17.5 mm for the C1 and C5. Whether or not the rods can actaully be machined successfully is of no cncern to me cause I cannot see the reasoning of machining the rods to fit the bearings insted of using matching rods with the crank. The only benefit I can see of machinig them to use 17.5 mm bearings is the molybdenum coating that honda puts on the bearings from the factory, but that is not near enough benefit to find it feasible for the machine work neccacary.
Granted, anyone who has read about the benefots of molybdenum sees the purpose for this, but the MoS2 can only last so long before it deteriorates as well. The money that would be spent on that procedure could better be applied towards a Z10 block girdle that does not deteriorate before the projected life of the engine.
The bottom line is that racing a motor is hard on it, no matter how well it is built, even if a motor, LSVTEC or not, is built properly can blow up. Be nice to the motor when not racing it, drive everywhere under four thousand RPMs and the motor will more than likely treat you nice in return when it comes time to drop the hammer. Out of anything I've typed in this post, that is probably the most important statement. Assuming that the motor is built with now flaws, treat it nice and it will treat you nice.
The first and foremost one that I always like to preach is the usage of VTEC head studs and retorqueing them at a thousand miles.
Like Newman said, there are a lot of little things that can get fouled up either unintentionally or unknowingly during build up. Like the dowel pins or the cleaning out of the shavings that form when the line is drilled in the head for the vtec oil line. Or shavings in the rear oil passage from the tapping there if that new GE oil filter add on isnt being used.
You have VTEC pistons, the valve relief size is all too important when revving an LSVTEC high
As far as the bearings go, to the best of my knowledge, all bearings except the B18C1 and C5 are 19.5 mm in width as opposed to 17.5 mm for the C1 and C5. Whether or not the rods can actaully be machined successfully is of no cncern to me cause I cannot see the reasoning of machining the rods to fit the bearings insted of using matching rods with the crank. The only benefit I can see of machinig them to use 17.5 mm bearings is the molybdenum coating that honda puts on the bearings from the factory, but that is not near enough benefit to find it feasible for the machine work neccacary.
Granted, anyone who has read about the benefots of molybdenum sees the purpose for this, but the MoS2 can only last so long before it deteriorates as well. The money that would be spent on that procedure could better be applied towards a Z10 block girdle that does not deteriorate before the projected life of the engine.
The bottom line is that racing a motor is hard on it, no matter how well it is built, even if a motor, LSVTEC or not, is built properly can blow up. Be nice to the motor when not racing it, drive everywhere under four thousand RPMs and the motor will more than likely treat you nice in return when it comes time to drop the hammer. Out of anything I've typed in this post, that is probably the most important statement. Assuming that the motor is built with now flaws, treat it nice and it will treat you nice.
#17
Re: Revving an LS/VTEC, couple questions? (riceboy)
It costed me $40 to have my LS rods machined for GSR/ITR bearings... runs super smooth... I was told that the molybdenum couln't hurt so I said why not for $40 more. That's just me though.
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Re: Revving an LS/VTEC, couple questions? (VtecDA9)
Another thing to keep in mind is a motor that makes 350hp at 11k has more stress on it than a motor making 600hp at 8k. The point is, a higher revving motor has more stress on it than a motor with high output that revs lower.
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Re: Revving an LS/VTEC, couple questions? (bew)
To rev past 7k, the motor must be equipped with parts that allow it to. First a type r oil pump wouldn't hurt, second if you are using stock rods, put in some arp rod bolts....shot peening is inexpenive too. My bottom end consisted of these parts plus ctr pistons..I revved to 9k daily with my LS/VTEC...Just build it right the first time so you won't have any problems....A lot of the guys that say ls/vtec is unreliable don't know how to build a motor right. As for bearings, I used the LS ones with no problems, just make sure they are new. If you plan on revving past 8k, get some valvetrain upgrades as well. PM me if you have any questions
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Re: Revving an LS/VTEC, couple questions? (Spoonin)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Spoonin »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Will B16 pistons fit on LS rods? I forget.</TD></TR></TABLE>
yes
yes
#22
Re: Revving an LS/VTEC, couple questions? (bew)
i did a ls vetc in my integra....and i dont have a problem taking it to 8k rpm...
and i dont have any internals...just all the bolt ons
the only reason that dey say that is ....becuz the rs block inst made for high rev...the diff between the rs and the vtec blocks is that vtech blocks have a oil squirter on the pistons to cool and keep it lubericated during high rev...
it isnt recommended that u rev high on a rs block but itll hold...and if u have a upgraded ecu den there shouldnt be a problem....
i say **** it drive fast and dont crash
and i dont have any internals...just all the bolt ons
the only reason that dey say that is ....becuz the rs block inst made for high rev...the diff between the rs and the vtec blocks is that vtech blocks have a oil squirter on the pistons to cool and keep it lubericated during high rev...
it isnt recommended that u rev high on a rs block but itll hold...and if u have a upgraded ecu den there shouldnt be a problem....
i say **** it drive fast and dont crash
#24
Re: Revving an LS/VTEC, couple questions? (CRX PAT)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX PAT »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Don't listen to this idiot, just because B16s can take 8000, doesn't mean you can slap the head on anything else and turn 8000. If I were to build an LS/VTEC, first I would shotpeen my LS rods, and modify them to accept VTEC motor rod bearings since these were meant to take the high RPM punishment. Get the crank balanced, make sure you're using a VTEC oil and water pump, and I don't see why you wouldn't be fine with that. Some of the things may be overkill, but think about it, you are trying to make an engine that was designed for 6700 RPM turn 8000+.</TD></TR></TABLE>
ooh big man talkin **** on the internet, that takes some *****. you have no idea what your talking about. why would you modify your rods to use ( vtec rod bearings). all of the b series motors use the same bearings. 8000 is safe for a ls vtec, if you go higher there is a good chance of your valves floating and ruining your motor, i have seen ls vtec's that were reved to high and it is never anything to do with the bottom end.
Don't listen to this idiot, just because B16s can take 8000, doesn't mean you can slap the head on anything else and turn 8000. If I were to build an LS/VTEC, first I would shotpeen my LS rods, and modify them to accept VTEC motor rod bearings since these were meant to take the high RPM punishment. Get the crank balanced, make sure you're using a VTEC oil and water pump, and I don't see why you wouldn't be fine with that. Some of the things may be overkill, but think about it, you are trying to make an engine that was designed for 6700 RPM turn 8000+.</TD></TR></TABLE>
ooh big man talkin **** on the internet, that takes some *****. you have no idea what your talking about. why would you modify your rods to use ( vtec rod bearings). all of the b series motors use the same bearings. 8000 is safe for a ls vtec, if you go higher there is a good chance of your valves floating and ruining your motor, i have seen ls vtec's that were reved to high and it is never anything to do with the bottom end.
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Re: Revving an LS/VTEC, couple questions? (h22 ef)
Actually buddy, the rod bearings aren't the same. If you had read the entire thread like you should have and not just my post you would have seen Trever's post that B18C rod bearings are .040" smaller. A smaller rod bearing allows an engine to spin more freely, but at the sacrifice of some strength. Seeing how Trever has a B20/VTEC that revs to 10k, I think I'm going to listen to him instead of some n00b know-it-all. There are also plenty of people that rev thier LS/VTECs well past 8k, without thier valves floating and without ruining thier motor. Just because you can't build an LS/VTEC ti rev past 8k doesn't mean it can't happen. Want proof? http://www.importreview.com/d_1.8.html Every single LS/VTEC dyno chart on that page revs at least to 8500, a few of them go past 9500. I don't care if you're seen LS/VTECs rev too high and blow up, the people who built them don't have any business doing anything more to thier motor than changing spark plugs. Was there anything else?