RC000E

So you probably came in all swole up, with your firing order/plug wire answer ready. No, trust me, this is much deeper and more difficult. If your ready to really search your mind for an answer then read on. If you aren't ready to search every possibility and think about this in deep thought...then just go.

I got a call by a guy who put his sons car together, and has just experienced non stop trouble. At first he stated his #1 cylinder runner on his polished header didn't discolor like the others. I told him I suspected a stuck injector and to remove it. He brought it to me, and it was completely stuck shut. I repaired it, and it functioned normally.

He then stated the header colored up immediately, yet still continues to "not run right".

The subject

1997 Honda Civic cp w/ H22A swap
Car converted OBD2 to OBD1
The harness was built by Rywire in CA, and they also supplied the OBD jumper.

The problem

Car struggles to idle on its own. It sounds as if it has an improper firing order. Revving it up smoothes it some, but overall the car just doesn't sound/run well.

Phase 1

First, upon hearing it...yes I checked the plug wire arrangement. It's fine, it's been checked and rechecked. Everything is in order. I also not NO CHECK ENGINE LIGHTS except for EGR.

Being it sounded like a miss or a misfire, while the owner kept it running with a little gas pedal, I began pulling each plug wire with the car running. The results:

#1 removed- NO change...no drop in rpm

At this point I stopped, thinking...well there is the non firing cylinder. The owner then said, "that is the cylinder that had that stuck injector".

With that I then check the resistance in ALL the injectors. All within the ohms tolerance stated in helms. I then checked the resistor box between the voltage source and the output to each injector. All resistances were within spec. I then continuity checked all the injectors to the ecu....all correct. I then move the #2 injector to the #1 spot, and vice versa...the problem stays in cylinder #1

I then check spark by pulling up the wire while the car is running...you can easily hear the spark. I also put the timing light on the #1 wire...and spark is there, but I then find that timing was WAY advanced. I adjust timing, and with the distributor all the way retarded can still only get as retarded as about 16 or so degrees. The car is not truly idling though...keep that in mind.

Phase 2

To this point I felt I determined the injectors all work, and I AM definitely getting spark to each cylinder. Through removing the injectors I have clearly also determined fuel pressure is present. In addition, having removed spark plugs, I see they are wet. I have also determined spark multiple ways, including with the timing light.

So I decide to run a compression check. All cylinders are between 215 and 210...dead consistent.

So at this point I am thinking..."ok, all the injectors work, it's getting spark clearly, the firing order is right, and there is compression. If you have fuel, spark, and compression, you have a running motor....as long as it's all TIMED RIGHT"

So, with that I pull the valve cover. I check the lash adjusters, while I'm in there, to be sure they aren't so loose that the valves in cylinder 1 are only partially opening. They are fine, and there is nothing notable to see. With the cover off though, I want to check timing belt timing.

I TDC the motor on the flywheel, then glance at the cam gears....DEAD *****!! The motor is in time as good as I've ever seen...absolutely dead *****.

Phase 3

Alright, so at this point I have checked:

Fuel injection system wiring, fuel pressure, and all injectors
Spark plugs, wires, firing order
Timing belt is dead *****, all in time

I still have a number one cylinder that has no audible change with the spark plug wire removed.

Just for more info, with the car started for about 1 min, the #1 runner does get warm, but no hot like the other 3. It is firing and making some power....just enough to create a little runner heat...not alot. The plugs in ALL cylinders look identical though....all carboned up.

So I have a motor that is in time, has fuel, has spark, has compression....and sounds like ***! So I then further decide I want to removed each spark plug while running, just to see what each one does.

#1.....no change like earlier
#2.....drop in rpm...more roughness
#3.....drop in rpm...more roughness
#4.....a freaking RISE IN RPM!!! Still rough running, but the rpms go up a good 500!

So, I'm thinking, alright some timing issue is happening here. The injector and spark events, while happening, must be still timed incorrectly. So I pull the distributor, and use a known good ignitor just to be certain on the spark end. I check the coil....all good according to helms. I then check all the wiring from the dizzy to the ecu....all CORRECT.

Finally, I say...maybe the ecu has an issue. I grab my laptop, load a P13 map, and the car starts up identically off my laptop...so the ecu he has is good.

The wrapup

So I've got fuel for sure...I moved a good cylinders injector to the bad location and the problem didn't move

I've got spark in all...verified by timing light and visually

Timing belt checked and motors timing is DEAD *****

Checked dizzy in and out, including the wiring...all good

Changed ignitor...no change

Compression is 210-215 in all cylinders

We are now getting to the point that I'm like...what the hell is happening here. How do you have fuel, compression, spark, correct firing order, correct enigine timing, and a shitty running motor?

This is tough one...and it's driving me crazy!





Modified by RC000E at 12:48 PM 7/25/2007

hondaracer6926

I'm no "honda expert" but like 2 years ago when i put a zc in my crx went to start it and it sounded like a really bad misfire. checked everything it would start up but only rev. to 3,000 rpms and to me sounded like misfiring the headers got really red. blah blah blah. i checked the cat. and it was ******* plugged cleaned it out and the lil ****** ran awesome. i dunno if this is the problem but check to see if your cat is pluged.

runsfromdacops

have you tryed using a new set of plug wires yet?
this same thig has hapend to me and in the end it way all becuz i shorted out my #1 injector wires which in trun killed that injector in the ecu. so you may need a new ecu.
whill the car is running pull plug off the #1 injector and plug it in to a volt meter to see if its even fireing.

-alex

boostedblkef

iTrader: (1)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hondaracer6926 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm no "honda expert" but like 2 years ago when i put a zc in my crx went to start it and it sounded like a really bad misfire. checked everything it would start up but only rev. to 3,000 rpms and to me sounded like misfiring the headers got really red. blah blah blah. i checked the cat. and it was ******* plugged cleaned it out and the lil ****** ran awesome. i dunno if this is the problem but check to see if your cat is pluged.</TD></TR></TABLE>

doesent really explain the # cyl not firing getting hot

im in for answers as well

Chem Geek

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RC000E &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I also put the timing light on the #1 wire...and spark is there, but I then find that timing was WAY advanced. I adjust timing, and with the distributor all the way retarded can still only get as retarded as about 16 or so degrees.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

This bothers me the most out of all of it. Just to make sure, you're saying that no matter how much you adjust the distributor, you can only retard enough to get 16 degree BTDC (advance)? I don't really see how the motor could be completely timed right and you can't get it below 16 BTDC.

Of course it could be a combination of things. Having an injector stuck wide open isn't going to help diagnose other stuff. Have you tried new wires, cap and rotor? Once in a blue moon you see wires bad enough to fire across to other cylinders. Could also be something with the wiring harness to I suppose.

That's all I got.

Kyle R

iTrader: (1)

In for answers....

RC000E

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by runsfromdacops &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">have you tryed using a new set of plug wires yet?
this same thig has hapend to me and in the end it way all becuz i shorted out my #1 injector wires which in trun killed that injector in the ecu. so you may need a new ecu.
whill the car is running pull plug off the #1 injector and plug it in to a volt meter to see if its even fireing.

-alex
</TD></TR></TABLE>

We've used two sets of wires, one set that came with the motor and a brand new set that was just purchased.

My laptop ran the motor the same identical way......so the ecu isn't effected.

Also, I don't know what kind of voltmeter you have, but if you plug a voltmeter to a plug wire on a running car you can say good bye to that voltmeter. Plus, I've clearly verified spark aside from that....

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hondaracer6926 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm no "honda expert" but like 2 years ago when i put a zc in my crx went to start it and it sounded like a really bad misfire. checked everything it would start up but only rev. to 3,000 rpms and to me sounded like misfiring the headers got really red. blah blah blah. i checked the cat. and it was ******* plugged cleaned it out and the lil ****** ran awesome. i dunno if this is the problem but check to see if your cat is pluged.</TD></TR></TABLE>

It's not the cat....totally irrelivant in this case

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chem Geek &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


This bothers me the most out of all of it. Just to make sure, you're saying that no matter how much you adjust the distributor, you can only retard enough to get 16 degree BTDC (advance)? I don't really see how the motor could be completely timed right and you can't get it below 16 BTDC.

Of course it could be a combination of things. Having an injector stuck wide open isn't going to help diagnose other stuff. Have you tried new wires, cap and rotor? Once in a blue moon you see wires bad enough to fire across to other cylinders. Could also be something with the wiring harness to I suppose.

That's all I got. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I know that the timing not being able to be retarded any further suggests the timing is wrong. This was the reason I looked to the timing. Its DEAD *****. I don't mean it's close...I mean it's dead ***** on.

The only explanation I can come up with on this, is that the motor isn't truly idling, it's being kept running with throttle. On an ignition map timing advances pretty quickly with rpm and decreased vacuum. I think this is the reason I can't pull any more timing. Once this issue is resolved, I think it will be revealed that timing isn't an issue.

This is gonna be something once its figured out. Definitely a weird circumstance here.

The owner now called me and stated he is buying an entirely new distributor. I told him I doubt this is going to help the situation being the distributor tested out according to Helms as being functioning perfectly. Either way though, he said he didn't mind just taking it out of the scenario entirely. So when he gets that he'll come back over, and we'll get back to it.

I'll post more whenever I come up with more here.

Bump for any more VALID possible causes.

RaceCarRyne

you said that you have an egr code.. i would resolve that problem and go from there.. egr has alot to do with how an engine runs

RaceCarRyne

and if that is fixed i would run a test on the module inside the dizzy. it may be weak and have a weak signal.. if that doesnt work i would check the coil.. if the motor is jdm it will have an internal coil but if the dizzy is usdm then it will be external.. also with the plugs being wet means weak spark... dizzy might be ur problem

bambbrose

iTrader: (1)

check the TDC and CYP sensors in the dizzy. I had a similar problem on my 97 EK hatch.

Those sensors are related to the fuel injector circuit

JDogg

check to make sure the EGR does not have direct vac line to it. if it does then it will hang open and make the car idle like complete ****

check the cam timing

thesmogman

EGR. You almost got there with the added air. Check that the egr is flowing and in allcylinders. Sounds like the #234 egr ports are plugged and all the air is rushing into #1 and keeping the cylinder cooler than the rest.

That's my bet.

PS: Excellent troublshooting and a descriptive post

RC000E

I can tell that most people didn't even read anything I typed.

Cam timing was checked twice by several eyes.

Dizzy was checked thoroughy per Helms! That means the coil was checked, known good ignitor was swapped in, all three cyp, tdc, ckp sensors were checked and well within ohm tolerance as stated it Helms. In addition I wrote above that the owner is buying another one just to be damn sure.

EGR has nothing to do with this issue. I've had H cars with the EGR both enabled and disabled....it's not going to cause a partially dead #1 cylinder.


This further reinforces what I'm saying...this is some kind of mystery f*ckin issue. I've been building honda's for years, and have sold swap harnesses since '01. I know these systems inside out. I cannot think of anything to explain this other than that somehow the dizzy sensors are checking out yet somehow still faulty?

It's clearly some kind of timing "issue" overall, because the cylinders are healthy, as are the injectors, and ending ignition system. Somehow the injector/plug events are not timed properly is just how it seems.

This is a mother is all I've got to say.

drumking15

man all i can say is i feel your pain...when you think you know it all...just another bug to grind out

JDogg

egr enabled or disabled has nothing to do with the vac lines being hooked up wrong.

if the egr has a constant vacume source it will hold it open. at idle there isnt enough velocity/pressure in the egr system to evenly distribute the exh gasses to all 4 cylinders. This is mechanical, NOT electrical/computer controled.

so before you get all pissy and defensive at me, do the simple task of going and pulling the vac line off the fn egr valve.

RC000E

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDogg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">egr enabled or disabled has nothing to do with the vac lines being hooked up wrong.

if the egr has a constant vacume source it will hold it open. at idle there isnt enough velocity/pressure in the egr system to evenly distribute the exh gasses to all 4 cylinders. This is mechanical, NOT electrical/computer controled.

so before you get all pissy and defensive at me, do the simple task of going and pulling the vac line off the fn egr valve. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Look, I'll go pull the vacuum line off of it just to be certain like you ask. I just fail to see how the EGR having a vacuum line to it is not going to cause a nearly dead cylinder throughout the rpm range.

I'm not getting pissy or defensive, I just really don't feel this is the issue. I've had EGR's cause small idle fluctuations and slight rough running, but nothing to this extent.

Like I said, I'll go pull it to be certain.

JDogg

i have had tons of h22 swaps come in running like **** with a seemingly dead cylinder, sounding like a bad running wrx and thats almost always the problem.

the egr system only pulls exhaust gasses from cylinder number 4 and the ports in the intake manifold are very small and get clogged easily.

other than that... fubar'd ecu, or cam timing are the 2 things id double check next

RC000E

Well, I think you should understand that if you check the timing once, it's either clearly on or not...plain and simple. I TDC'd the flywheel, and the cam gear marks were dead ***** together flush with the top of the head. The timing is dead *****.

I'll check EGR here shortly. I've always blocked off the EGR on H22's, as I have a bunch of block off plates already made. That might even be the option I take and just block the entire thing off. I'll let you know.

thesmogman

Also the EGR valve could be stuck open too. If the problem occurs at idle then I would think it is stuck open. Unless the vacuum lines are not correct. The EGR does nothing at idle, or I should say shouldn't do nothing.

You can try to loosen up the EGR with a couple of taps with a hammer.

RC000E

This is why I keep reitterating that it's not the EGR. This problem is through the entire rpm range. I'm going to conclusively find out if it's EGR in about 2 hours though....so we'll all know for certain.

thesmogman

And that is why I think it is stuck open. Because the problem is throughout the rpm range.

alterdcreations

you should have wrote a bibliography about this

alterdcreations

i would rotate the firing order. and also check cam timing

CubanoRockr

i would (crazy as it amy sound) check the wiring going to each injector by having a long jumper wire to the ecu side and the injector clip side to be sure that the right one is listed and dumping fuel to the wrong one, and then what happened with the new dizzy?

i just did a friend of mine's eg w/ an h23 and did the 94 guts into the dizzy and avoided the external coil and cleaned it up a bit, with that being sd if i had used the d-series shaft inside the h- series casing it could easily be off as in the b - d series shaft (i found this out the hard way) it isn't much of a difference but enough to f things up a bit, if he did use a new dizzy discard this....

but to me it is either something off in the dizzy or the injectors check the wiring again to be on the safe side and the dizzy internals

JDogg

if there is a vac line directly on the egr valve (not going through the control soleniods) it will be held open anytime there is any vacume in the manifold, at idle or 100000 rpms, if there is vac it will be open......