rrace002

During the last week we ended up dropping a valve, replaced all valves and ended up going back to the dyno for a retune; then crashed the head again on the dyno. It looks like the pistons are just barely hitting the head (due to rod stretch) and causing random bolts to come loose in the motor. This is what the tuner thinks at least. He thinks the rod bolts (ARP 2000's) are not strong enough for the stress caused by high stroke at high RPMs (8300 with a 97mm crank). The motor should be pretty.

We did push out a maximum of 270 whp and a nice flat torque curve with a max of 196 wtq on a dynomite which reads somewhat low (11-14% less than dynojet).

I will be posting pictures and a video of the car shortly.

rrace002

Dyno video.

rrace002

Here are a few links of the dyno pulls, and one of the idle sound with pro2's....
http://youtu.be/0Q5j5L0_4Kc
http://youtu.be/WXKFc6pbCv4
http://youtu.be/YAmIYpXbvK8

rrace002

This is the final 270 whp dyno.

ESP.net

So you had stock valves this F20B or H22 Head? So you replaced them OEM? or aftermarket? and this happened again? Did you do any more cam gear tuning then before?

ARP 2000's should be good.

From here I would purchase a thicker cometic headgasket for the amount of clearance you think you need or clay.

rrace002

This is the second time this happened in the last week. We did fine tune the cam gears and made power up to about 8300 rpm on the dyno. The tuner had a k engine that he build with the same pistons and the same rods (coincidentally) had the same issue.
It seems like there was a small amount of stretch somewhere causing the pistons to hit the deck; but that theory hasn't been backed yet by actual proof.

The fact is that something caused the bolt to fly out that was holding the harmonic balancer on the motor, and thats when the head crashed the second time.

The first time was a little harder for me to pinpoint to vibrations because a bolt on the waterpump broke.
We replaced the valves with stock h22a4 valves and thats when we through it back on the dyno and made 270. According to the tuner a k20a2 with intake header exhaust makes around 200-215 whp.

ESP.net

Well the cam gear settings might of been too much? causing v2p contact?

Maybe a wrist pin issue? Ive had crank pulley bolts come out before... loctite and correct ft/lbs. Bolt that broke on water pump doesnt happen to be the one related to the manual tensioner?

Rods and ARP 2000 should not be the issue. If correctly installed.

rrace002

I will post a picture of the bolt that broke on the waterpump.
At this point it is possible that the bolt just came loose from not being torqued properly, we won't know for sure until we check the pistons.

rrace002

As far as the cam gear settings causing piston to valve.... The tuner said he doubts it. Wouldn't contact occur as soon as you hit vtec?

rrace002

The first time the head crashed- a bolt that broke on the water pump and it is still a mystery to me why this bolt broke. It seems like the timing belt broke that bolt; but the bolt was not a bolt used to adjust tension on the belt from what I can see.

rrace002

It just snapped right off; you can see the remains in there still.

ESP.net

If the rods dont have some unusual play, I wouldn't worry. I would clay the motor this time around or chance with a 35-45k thick cometic mls headgasket. This will lower your compression a tiny bit.

Yes that is the bolt I thought you were reffering too. That exact bolt is what is used with the timing belt tension on the AUTO tensioners.... Manual conv. dont use it.


You lucky it snapped, it is part of the tensioner system on the timing belt. I personally have done this once, forgot to release the tension first and snap the whole water pump housing because I forgot to release the tension. More times then not it would crack the water pump not the bolt, pump is weaker... I think I would make sure the pump has no hair line cracks from this happening or this will be a side sight to have water coming out of it. I am finicky and at this point would replace it just in case.


I would step this setup up... yes it cost money but will be worth it on the power... Your intake manifold and exhaust are your 2 restricting factors at this point. You free the flow, more power...

Sort out the piston to valve dilema, claying motor or thicker head gasket...
Excessive Intake Manifold matching 80mm TB they recommend
Legit Port and Polish Done
Legit custom header

You do this 290/300 hp is possible....

rrace002

So that bolt is not supposed to be on there at all using the kaizenspeed tensioner setup? I guess that was a mistake.....

We changed the waterpump out to a different one when we changed the valves last sunday.....
I wanted to change the header out and go with maybe a k series RBC intake manifold but I am not sure which header to get; I do have a full 3" catback exhaust already.

rrace002

Claying the motor wouldn't tell us if the pistons are actually hitting the head.... would it?

AllMtrRex

Yes, both piston to head and piston to valve clearance can be checked using clay.

ESP.net

I am not sure with the Kaizen Speed Tensioner Kit however that stud that broke went to stock Auto tensioner. Manual H23 doesn't use any previsions on the water pump (picture in my head)

Clay the Motor or gamble with a 40k thick headgasket.... which I think should give you clearance

A legit Port and Polish Job... 4 piston ideally CNC... but even a good knowledgable machine shop with a flow bench and pNp know how will benefit you...

I think your money is better off with the Excessive Intake Manifold and there recommended Throttle Body. Should be even cheaper when said and done then going to K series OEM manifold, Excessive will obviously flow a lot more as well. Excessive makes a K manifold as well which is the same as the H22 far as specs.

Hytech and SSR I would contact about a custom header they should have an idea on primary size to go with if you explain your setup. I would ask NAH2B randy what he thinks would work well. You spend the money now you will be gifted with maybe a 300 hp monster on that dyno you have.

rrace002

I think the head gasket we used was 0.030."

ESP.net

OEM is what .026/.030

Try 40k cometic MLS $120

DarKStaR5

sounds like you are having p2v issues....after reading your other threads you never checked v2v or p2v, and your tuner was adjusting cam gear settings on the dyno without knowing how much clearance you had...

ESP.net

Tadaaa! Yes he had contact and adjusted cams... however I would go with skunk2 recommends, and leave it... you go more asking for more trouble even with a thicker gasket. Claying it will tell you a story on what you can do and what you can't at this point 40k head gasket and skunk2 recommendations on cam gear settings

rrace002

It is possible there wasn't enough clearance; although the first time we dropped valves on skunk2's cam settings so I doubt the different cam settings made any difference.

rrace002

The part that doesn't make any sense is that my brother drove the car a few thousand miles and made numerous street pulls with it against other cars. He made numerous trips to the rev limiter and really beat the motor for so many miles. Why would it all of the sudden fail? Maybe the clearance wasn't there the whole time and something changed internally...... to cause interference to start happening?
First time it just happened, second time the harmonic balancer fell off the motor so I am not sure if interference happened on account of the harmonic balancer falling out or not.

Either way we are taking it apart and measuring it this time around. Lucky for us it doesnt seem like its too bad.

ESP.net

Crank pulley bolts backing out is nothing new. That can happen. Happen to me. I was lucky enough to get the key way and balance shaft pulley lined up with timing belt plastic within 10 min or could of meant me pulling whole engine out... loctite and recommended ft lbs.

Open the bottom up, shake the rods see if there is anything unsual, drain the oil, check the oil for sparkles... A valve can take no beatings and be damaged after just claying a motor, or take a beaten for a bit and fail... claying the motor will tell you a story.

rrace002

Did you get interference when your crank pulley bolt came out?

ESP.net

No I got lucky, timing gear was still on crank pulley like it should be... I went to make a pull in my turbo h23v crx on the street, went to hit 3rd car shut off, I coasted, pulled over. No instrutment lights, nothing, wouldnt start. Was wierd just a sudden shut off.

Looked under the car sure enough crank pulley was slightly tilted, and crank pulley bolt was half way out. Trailered it home. Was able to get key way in after turning crank pulley slightly to get it to mesh up. Loctite and 180 ft lbs. Fired right up, compression check, same, never had an issue again.