Train

ok evreyone. i have a 95 GSR. stock motor. i've decided i need more torque and more low and midrange power. i was gonna go with an H22 swap. it wouldn't cost me too much cause i can sell my b18c1 for more than an H22 costs, so i could use the little bit of extra money for the wiring harness and axles, then buy the HAsport or placeracing mounts and i think i could do it for about $400 or so.

however, lately i've been hearing a lot of good things about the B20/vtec. i know they make good power, but apparently they make more power than i thought. and B20/vtec owners just seem to LOVE the engine. i will def do more research on it, but which of these two options would be better, both for performance, price, and reliablity?

i have heard of reliablity issues with a B20/vtec, but i've also heard that, if done right, it can be reliable. would the B20 block be cheaper at the end of the swap? i'm pretty sure i already know of a guy that would buy my b18c1 block, so i could use that money to get the B20 block, and then maybe with the leftover money, get some minor bolt-ons. or maybe an exhaust system.

i know the specs of the H22. what sort of figures am i looking at for a stock B20 block with a stock B18C head?? i would like to get an estimated HP, torque, compression ratio, etc. and would i still redline at 8100?? what about my revving? what would i redline at if it wasn't 8100? would a chipped P28 fix that fairly easily?

thanks!

nauticapinoy

Stick with the b18c1 and add F.I. thats my 2 cents

yaya

i am buying an h22 here shortly, but if i already had a b18c i would sell the b18 bottom and replace it with a b20

my two cents

SilverEk3dr

I would def. stay B-series. After having the h22 in my civic....I would so rather have a B series now. Just save for a while and go buy a b20 bottom end and just build the **** out of it. Then when your done building it just swap out the blocks in your car.

Mark

The_Head

Why do you say stay B series? What dont you like about having an H motor in your Civic?

Na99Si

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by xThexHeadx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Why do you say stay B series? What dont you like about having an H motor in your Civic?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I know this wasn't directed towards me, but I thought I would add my 2 cents. The H22 swap I saw in a 93 hatch looked like ***. The valve cover was rubbing against the shock tower and there was maybe a half inch between the TPS and the firewall. Looked like if you wanted to work on anything that you needed to tear the engine halfway down. From what I have been told, they just don't fit very well in those cars.

Newman

Put it this way. I had a turbo B20 setup, took of the turbo and ran all motor B20 w/GSR tranny. It was a quick setup but compared to driving a H22, it's almost night & day with torque (yes, that much) so there is a considerably noticable difference in "torque feel" and throttle response between the two setups. But, stick with whatever is going to fit your budget, and whatever you feel will make you happy.

The_Head

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Newman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Put it this way. I had a turbo B20 setup, took of the turbo and ran all motor B20 w/GSR tranny. It was a quick setup but compared to driving a H22, it's almost night & day with torque (yes, that much) so there is a considerably noticable difference in "torque feel" and throttle response between the two setups. But, stick with whatever is going to fit your budget, and whatever you feel will make you happy.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah, that's what makes me wonder. I've had a turbo B20 before... it was great and all but I would just like to have torque with a naturally aspirated setup, I am looking for less drama and better reliablility. Yeah I know FI setups can be reliable, but i just havent had the best of luck..

SilverEk3dr

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Why do you say stay B series? What dont you like about having an H motor in your Civic?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I did like the idea of having the H22 in my civic at first. I thought that it was gonna be really fast, and not have many challengers besides the obvious built cars. But I was wrong. My car ran obd2 (96 p13) when I first put it together, but I have since got hondata. But I havent yet had the car running off the hondata. I am sure that my mind will change some after the hondata is up and tuned to full potential. I have just had a bunch of crap with it that I would have liked to not have gone through (for ex.) the mounts not fitting quite right. Engine vibrates horrible with the a/c on at idle, No power steering Etc....

Its mostly just drivability and comfort that I have to complain about, and if I had gone with a b series then I could have just used stock 99 si mounts....

Maybe I'm just picky....but it sucks having a race car/daily driver

Mark

Pat McGroin

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Na99Si &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I know this wasn't directed towards me, but I thought I would add my 2 cents. The H22 swap I saw in a 93 hatch looked like ***. The valve cover was rubbing against the shock tower and there was maybe a half inch between the TPS and the firewall. Looked like if you wanted to work on anything that you needed to tear the engine halfway down. From what I have been told, they just don't fit very well in those cars.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Another "from what I have been told" rumors. Oh yeah, slverdjex aren't you the one running like high 14's low 15's with an h22a swap? In your situation, if I had the money, I would go with the h22a because I love torque especially when it's naturally aspirated.

SilverEk3dr

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Oh yeah, slverdjex aren't you the one running like high 14's low 15's with an h22a swap? In your situation, if I had the money, I would go with the h22a because I love torque especially when it's naturally aspirated.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah my best time so far is 14.78@92 w/2.4-2.5 60' (on an obd2 ecu, 17's, stripped rear 2452lbs)

All I got is 2.5" exhaust & short ram.

Put is this way....From racing other cars. I raced an EG hatch with a b16 set up all I could tell was that he had intake and he was running straight header (coulda been more) but he swears it was all stock. Anyway when we raced I pulled him hard off the line, but then about the top of third going into forth he started to slowly walk back until he was next to me.....it was over 100, so I figure it was more than a 1/4 mile but thats not the point....he shouldnt have had much of a chance all the way....

But cruizing on the highway it does feel real torquey & I dont have to downshift to accel easily.

Mark

Train

i don't have the money to build a B20 block and i won't for a while. got some debts. i figure i can sell my b18c block to this guy and get the B20 block running for about the same as i sold my b18c block for. i have to sell my b18c block to get the B20 block.

however, i would still like to know this, as posted in my thread opener:

"i know the specs of the H22. what sort of figures am i looking at for a stock B20 block with a stock B18C head?? i would like to get an estimated HP, torque, compression ratio, etc. and would i still redline at 8100?? what about my revving? what would i redline at if it wasn't 8100? would a chipped P28 fix that fairly easily?"

i would really like to get some HP and torque estimates from you guys that have had this setup or from someone that has built one. i want to be pushed back in my seat when i stomp on the gas. (i know to really get that effect, i should build the motor, but it's not in the cards right now. i'll try to do a little at a time.)

meanwhile, i've purchased the APEXi WS catback system for fairly cheap. which brings to mind a question: WILL THIS SYSTEM BOLT UP IF I HAVE A B20 BLOCK, EVEN THOUGH ITS FOR A GSR?? if not, how do i make it work? i really want the WS system. it's my favorite (tho i have never driven a car with it installed, but i really like the pros of it, and so far i've heard no cons.)

i need to stay ahead of the B16 and B18 hatches and CRXs out there, and i feel like i need more torque and power down low. i want the competition to fall back quickly and stay back there. plus, i don't think anyone in my area has a B20/vtec setup (and i think i have a pretty good idea of what's out there cause i work in a performance shop and nobody keeps their mods a secret ).

will i still be able to redline at 8100? maybe with a chipped P28? most importantly for me right now is my HP and torque figures, and how broad my powerband is. please someone help me out! thanks.

sorry for the novel. i like to find out as much as i can about these kinds of things, especially when motors and cash is at stake.

Train

oh, and is it true that the B20 block can't really be bored out safely?? i think the bore is already like 84 mm, right? and i've heard things about the B20 having weak cylinders, or cracking sleeves or something. can anyone tell me about that? is it wise to stick with a stock bore, even on a built B20?

thanks

00b16

Personally I say go with the H22. Thats what I'm planning on doing. I have a b16 currently. I want to be able to bounce on anyone on the street. If it gets you don't the 1/4 faster and you can bounce off the line or from rolling does it matter? Not to mention stock motor=reliability. Just my two cents though.

sappsycho

The B20 can be bored safely but if you're still unsure, just resleeve it.

The engine that might be a little risky to bore is the H22 due to its thin cylinder walls but it has been done and done safely SO FAR.

SilverEk3dr

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The engine that might be a little risky to bore is the H22 due to its thin cylinder walls but it has been done and done safely SO FAR.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I dont think your right about that. The H-series is just different and nothing I have ever seen warned against boring an h22. Even my helms manual just says if honing wont smooth out the cylinder...then you must bore it.

Mark

Train

sooo....can anyone give me any estimated power figures??? please! hp, torque, and at about what range on the powerband? CR? with the B20Z, the stock compression is 9.6. how does that mix with the CR of my b18c? will i still be safe to redline at 8100?

what must i do to keep this motor reliable? i would really appreciate it if someone would answer these questions. if you're not sure, then please say so. i just want some questions answered from someone that has done this before.

thanks

BUCKO5

i have a ls turbo with a 9 lb flywheel, and at 6 lbs of boost, i can't keep the wheels from breaking loose, i had 18" CP10's on it and i would get traction in first, then stab it, and they would break, just for a few seconds into second, but those were 18x7.5 racing hearts with yokohama parada tires, and they would not grip until mid second. i originally had 10 lbs on the stock motor, but i had to give the boost controlled back to my friend, IT WAS FAST AS HEL*!!!!!!! i think that an LS bottom is the perfect cheap pwer house. sell the gsr longblock, buy an ls longblock, and a decent/good turbo kit, put 10 lbs of boost and tune it. and you will role. i guarntee you low 13's, i get mid 13's in my del sol on 6 lbs with stock michilin tires on my gsr wheels.

if not, keep the gsr, save your money, STROKER KIT will solve all your problems. lots of torque, you pick a compression ratio, and then comes the headwork $$$$. it is all your opinion

The_Head

I think the idea behind this topic was to avoid going Forced Induction AND have torque. My turbo B16A has torque. A turbo anything will have torque, for the most part.

SilverEk3dr

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">sooo....can anyone give me any estimated power figures??? please! hp, torque, and at about what range on the powerband? CR? with the B20Z, the stock compression is 9.6. how does that mix with the CR of my b18c? will i still be safe to redline at 8100? </TD></TR></TABLE>

I knew a guy with a b20/vtec that was running like 11.5 c/r. When he raced it he took it all the way to 8500. It had stock b16 head w/b16 cams. It ran really nice though. He THINKS he coulda beat me in my hatch, but we never got a chance to race. It felt pretty fast though, and man did it scream in VTEC...

Edit: he claimed 180 to the wheels....it sounded about right

Mark

jacobyb

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by xThexHeadx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think the idea behind this topic was to avoid going Forced Induction AND have torque. My turbo B16A has torque. A turbo anything will have torque, for the most part.</TD></TR></TABLE>

No b16 has torque. Not even if it is boosted.

I don't know who did their own work, or who went to a shady shop, but my '97 Civic Ex with a JDM H22A-S is great. I sold it about a year ago. It was perfect. None of the Balance problems everyone speculates about, no crazy vibrations, no weird agle installs, nothing. It got 27-30mpg and ran perfect. I had some custom gearing, but I would hit high 13's stock. When we added 13:1 pistons, custom Crower Cams, Extrude/Honed everything, Valve work, ECU, full length header, the whole nine yards, we got almost 310whp. I shifted it at about 8200rpm's (starts to oil starve above that), and had torque out the ***. I could shift it down from 5th to 3rd on the freeway and spin the tires.

If you want torque, H22 is the answer to your question. And it does not require any internal work to rev high.

The_Head

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jacobyb &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">No b16 has torque. Not even if it is boosted. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Your just full of beans

Train

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BUCKO5 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i have a ls turbo with a 9 lb flywheel, and at 6 lbs of boost, i can't keep the wheels from breaking loose, i had 18" CP10's on it and i would get traction in first, then stab it, and they would break, just for a few seconds into second, but those were 18x7.5 racing hearts with yokohama parada tires, and they would not grip until mid second. i originally had 10 lbs on the stock motor, but i had to give the boost controlled back to my friend, IT WAS FAST AS HEL*!!!!!!! i think that an LS bottom is the perfect cheap pwer house. sell the gsr longblock, buy an ls longblock, and a decent/good turbo kit, put 10 lbs of boost and tune it. and you will role. i guarntee you low 13's, i get mid 13's in my del sol on 6 lbs with stock michilin tires on my gsr wheels.</TD></TR></TABLE>

thanks, but i don't have $5000 to spend.

Train

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SlvrEj6Dx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I knew a guy with a b20/vtec that was running like 11.5 c/r. When he raced it he took it all the way to 8500. It had stock b16 head w/b16 cams. It ran really nice though. He THINKS he coulda beat me in my hatch, but we never got a chance to race. It felt pretty fast though, and man did it scream in VTEC...

Edit: he claimed 180 to the wheels....it sounded about right

Mark</TD></TR></TABLE>

that sounds nice. i would like to have 180 whp

Train

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jacobyb &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

No b16 has torque. Not even if it is boosted.

I don't know who did their own work, or who went to a shady shop, but my '97 Civic Ex with a JDM H22A-S is great. I sold it about a year ago. It was perfect. None of the Balance problems everyone speculates about, no crazy vibrations, no weird agle installs, nothing. It got 27-30mpg and ran perfect. I had some custom gearing, but I would hit high 13's stock. When we added 13:1 pistons, custom Crower Cams, Extrude/Honed everything, Valve work, ECU, full length header, the whole nine yards, we got almost 310whp. I shifted it at about 8200rpm's (starts to oil starve above that), and had torque out the ***. I could shift it down from 5th to 3rd on the freeway and spin the tires.

If you want torque, H22 is the answer to your question. And it does not require any internal work to rev high.</TD></TR></TABLE>

and this just sounds frickin terrific! i would love to have the power to spin wheels shifting on the interstate. (i won't have a built motor tho)

so you really didn't have front/rear weight ratio problems? thats cool. and it was easy to do?

maybe i will go with the H22. the B20 might be cheaper, but it doesn't sound like i'd be getting the HP and torque that i want.

thanks