00WhiteEKy

Ok, i know someone has tried this already. But if you think about it, when your at the track, and its like over 100 degrees out side, and your motor is going to putting out even more heat, even if your intake is sucking air from way down under your motor, your still going to be sucking in 100+ degree air. And I know using your a/c robs you of power, but would you gain more than you would loose? I mean, A/C's blow like 32 degree air. and i know there is a formula for every degree colder air/fuel, the more horse you get. And i was wondering, how hard would it really be to make your a/c run electric, not off your belts, then its not robbing any power.
has anyone ever thought about this or tried it?? does it sound like a good idea? Give me every ones thoughts on this.
Added: unless nobody even thought of this, and it workes really good, remember who thought of it first. hahaha. j/k.


[Modified by 92hatchy, 5:08 AM 3/30/2003]

MikeMAN

where do u think the AC blows air?? It doesn't do ANYTHING to cool the engine at ALL, let alone blow cold air up ur intake pipe.

mike

00WhiteEKy

ok, it must have been late when you posted that. My first sentance was "someone must have TRIED this before." And ok, to answer your first question, a/c blows cold air into your car. NO KIDDING. but to try my idea, instead of blowing the cold air into the inside of your car, you blow it into your intake. Kinda like running a/c inside your car but then have your intake tube suck air from the inside of your car. And then, to answer your second question, if you run the a/c blower into your intake, the engine would run cooler. the radioter cools the motor, but cold air makes the motor run cooler. The colder the air you give the motor, the more horse you get. this wouldn't be that hard to rig up. and it would be the different from sucking in 120+ degree air complaired to 32 degree air. And im trying to look to see how hard it would be to run the a/c compressor by using an electric motor. then it doens't rob you of any power.


[Modified by 92hatchy, 5:08 PM 3/30/2003]

92sleepR

I remember reading a post a while ago about someone routing his intake through the fire wall into the cabin and he said that it was so loud it made his ears bleed For an all out race car it might be worth something but then again, if it was an all out race car you wouldn't have AC on there in the first place. Now what MIGHT be cool (pun intended) would be to modify the air circulation box so that part of it could blow through the fire wall over to the intake such that when you selected the footwell vents it would route the air into the engine bay. Having rebuilt a civic dash I see no reason from a fabrication point why it couldn't work but it wouldn't be easy by any stretch of the imagination.

Mike

98HB

I think a better and more pratical Idea is just to run a cool can for your fuel, no belts or electricity just dry ice!

MikeMAN

okay, now read your first post....and read your second one...ur first one has NO indication on where u wanna put that air or what ur really saying, ur second post....NOW its understandable what u want to do. Anyways, if ur gunna try something wacky, try sticking a hose up to the exhaust and use it as ur heater j/k

mike

00WhiteEKy

how much extra horse do you get for running your motor colder? I know there is some formula for every degree colder the car runs, the more horse you get. But im not sure of what it is. i think it would be cool to route the cold air from your a/c to run into your intake, would be one of a kind.
hey 98HB. can you explain more about the cool can. like a web site on them, but that cools your fuel, right? so it would be even better to cool your fuel and cool your air. But im wondering if you even gain enough horse to make it worth while. It would be a lot of work to run a tube to your intake for colder air, but if its worth it, ill do it. and then let you know if it cuts my time down or not.
oh yeah, mikeman, look at what my post is called. "air conditioning hooked to the intake" haha. know what?? about the exhaust used for the heater, at least i would get heat right away. haha. but seriously, why doens't cars use an electric heater?? it would be heat instanly. then people don't need to run their cars to get heat. maybe a bad idea. i dunno.


[Modified by 92hatchy, 8:57 PM 3/30/2003]

keebler65

i think you're forgetting how much horsepower your A/C compressor takes to operate. do you ever notice how much slower your car is when the A/C is running? thats because the compressor has to spin which puts load on your crank and ultimately robs you of power. i really dont think the benefits outweigh what you're sacrificing, in this case.

now, as far as cooling fuel is concerned, i suppose you could make some kind of copper coil that fuel runs through right before it goes to the fuel rail. then, as stated above, you could cool the coil with dry ice. they sell copper tubing in coils, so all you'd have to do is bend it to a little tighter coil, and place it inbetween the fuel filter and fuel rail. the hardest part would be terminating the ends and not having it leak under fuel pressure. all i'm doing here is telling you a way to cool your fuel. i honestly dont know how effective it is, however. although, i'm sure it plays a role in cooling the air RIGHT before it enters the engine since the cold fuel would be misted in the air.

anyways, i hope this helps you a little. playing around with the fuel idea may be fun, but dont waste your time with the A/C idea.

scotty9669

keebler he said he was gunna run the ac from an electric motor. thus no paracitic power loss from the compressor. only other thing to factor is would be the actually weight of the entire ac unit still in there as compared to being removed.

keebler65

ok sorry i missed that, but what is the electric motor powered from? it would take a large motor to turn the compressor, and that motor would take a ton of current to operate. if its hooked up to the electrical system, then it would be powered by the alternator (putting a HUGE load on that...) and thus yielding the same effect of robbing crank power. if he was powering it by an independent battery, then the battery would weight so much that he wouldnt be gaining anything in his 1/4 mile time. this is similar to the idea of "electric superchargers" - you simply dont come out ahead in the end. theres no such thing as a free lunch, or in this case, free power.

00WhiteEKy

well, here is the thing. I am going to keep a/c on my car. the hot weather always gets to me on trips, and its my daily driver. so i owuld like to rig up the floor vents to the intake. I don't think you would need that big of a motor to spin the a/c. it just has to spin it like a ****. I mean, i beat a drill could spin it. something i would have to try i guess. or ask someone who knows A LOT about how the a/c compressor works. But i had a buddy use drill on his skates to move him. most drills have a lot of TQ and i bet it could keep up.
but does anyone know why you can't use an electric heater? instant heat!!!

98HB

Here is some info on cool cans. Go to jegs.com/fuel system

Cool your fuel for a denser charge and more power.

With so much effort spent these days on reducing intake temperatures through the use of aftermarket intercoolers etc it is unusual that few think of cooling the fuel on its way to the engine. In fact a 10percent reduction in fuel temperature will reduce the intake charge by around 5percent. On a hot day in full sun there is the potential for the fuel to warm in the tank. Combine with this the heat picked up on the round trip to and from the engine and the potential gains become significant.


Super Cool Can
Thanks to an all new heat-sink design, you get more efficient fuel cooling. Up to 20% cooler, plus ice lasts longer! No rust polyethylene shell has tight snap-on lid. 3/8''NPT inlet and outlet. Excellent at reducing fuel temperature for a denser air-fuel mixture. Cool, dense fuel makes horsepower!

This NHRA approved kit can be used to upgrade mounting of older Moroso cool cans (newer cans include this kit as standard equipment). The 3/4'' stainless steel straps with T-bolt style clamps are corrosion resistant and include self-locking nuts to withstand vibration. Lightweight aluminum mounting bracket with two mounting holes can be affixed to tube chassis or body panel.

keebler65

a drill has enough torque, but the problem is that it doesnt have the speed that the compressor would need. think about how big the pulley on your compressor is. its about the size of your crank pulley, but just a tad smaller. this means it spins a little FASTER than the crank. trust me, the only drill that spins at thousands of revolutions per minute would be something like a dremel, which has no torque what so ever.

high speed, high torque, small size pick two.

i dont know where you're going with the electric heater idea, unless you're talking about the convenience of instant heat. however, electric heat is extremely inefficient. this is why most heating done in this world is done by either gas or steam. an electric heater big enough to heat the cabin of your car would take way more power than your alternator could ever supply.

Mentat Ghola

how about using a radiator fan motor, those spin quite fast. Im not sure if messing with fuel temperatur would be too safe, people at the track usually just throw bags of ice on the intake manifold and intercooler, even SCC magazine used that trick when testing the new EVO 8. what you could do is make one of those airfilter heat guards, that seperate it from the rest of the engine bay, and maybe throw some dry ice in there, close to the filter. If using ice make sure its bagged so u dont suck in water . I think ive heard that every 3 degrees is worth a horsepower. I can definitely tell the difference when its cold, like at night. At the track, if its overcast all of a sudden on a otherwise sunny day ive gained .2 seconds.

00WhiteEKy

here is some info:
If you've taken chemistry classes, you've probably seen the ideal gas equation, PV=nRT. This relationship between the pressure, temperature, and volume of a gas indicates that if the gas is colder, it's denser, and denser air will provide more oxygen, allowing your car to burn more fuel and make more power. A common rule of thumb holds that decreasing air intake temperature by 10 degrees F will increase horsepower and torque by 1%. The converse is also true; a 10 degree rise in intake temperature will cost you 1% of your horsepower.
so if its 120 outside, and your giving your car 32 degree air, thats 90 degrees. so thats a 9% increase in power. if you have a 200 horse power car, your gaining 18 horsepower. which really isn't too much power i guess, but you have to remember that the road is going to be hotter if you have an intake toob under your bumper, and if you have an intake tube under your hood, it will be well over 120 degree air.

00WhiteEKy

if every 3 degrees in 1 horse power, WOW!!!! 80 degrees colder is like 27 horses. that would be cool.
but those cool cans are actully really cool. Does anyone have any experience in these? expecially in like arizona where its so freaken hot. I don't think if would be hard to make one, get some fuel line, and bend it too a coil. aluminum line will cool fast too. might be kinda cool. maybe even use the a/c to cool the coil of fuel line insteak of ice. i dunno. im just pondering weird ideas.


[Modified by 92hatchy, 12:30 AM 3/31/2003]

keebler65

you're forgetting how much power your compressor will rob you of though. i'm going to tell you that an electric motor simply isnt going to be practical. its up to you if you want to waste your time or not. assuming one was going to leave the compressor connected to the crank, i guarantee you that your theoretical 9% increase in power will be consumed by the compressor.

the *only* way i see your idea being effective is if you route the intake tube into your cabin (yes, it will be loud). then, run your A/C a lot before your 1/4 mile run until the cabin is fully cool. then, do the 1/4 mile run with the A/C OFF. this way, it will be using the cabin as a "storage tank" of cold air.

i dont know how else to explain to you that theres no such thing as free power. if there was, we'd have pepetral (sp?) motion machines developed years ago.

00WhiteEKy

do you want to know my idea for free power? Ok, get a boat battery, lots of amps. then get a power inverter that has 2 120 volt outlets. plug a battery charger into one outler, and then maybe a tv or something else into the left over power outlet. yeah it won't last forever, but it will last for a while. and its really cool to do camping. bring a batter, battery charger, power inverter, and anything you want to run for free. it does last for a really long time. eventually the tv or what ever your running will out do your battery, but then let it charge.


using the cabin as cold air would be a good idea, but really loud. but yeah, it wouldn't be worth trying to hook the a/c right into my intake. those cool cans would be the best way, then maybe rig up the intake tube to somewhere outside the car. but i would think that the intake would suck up the air from inside your cabin so fast.


[Modified by 92hatchy, 12:46 AM 3/31/2003]

keebler65

alright go ahead with your setup and show us how much faster you are. i'm not going to prove my point any further. stop by the FI forum with a link to this thread and see what they have to say. its common sense that it wont work.

00WhiteEKy

dude, im just saying my ideas on here. and did i not just totaly agree with you?? i said it wouldn't (WOULD NOT) be worth the time and energy to rib up the a/c on the intake. but this is not forced induction. this is just ideas I have. sorry i pissed you off.

keebler65

no hard feelings man, but its just that you keep posting different theories of free power that simply dont add up (its ok to share, its just that i'm trying to tell you that these arent possible). you cant charge a battery by hooking a charger to it thats powered by the same battery, if that is what you were implying. if that worked, then power plants would have changed a long time ago and not be burning coal anymore if they had generators that powered themselves by motors powered by the same generator. i hope this is making sense.

my comment about the FI forum had to do with the people in that forum. i know that this isnt a form of FI, however there are a lot of smart people in there that would back up what i'm saying.

sorry if i'm not interpreting what you're saying correctly, but i'm just trying to save you the trouble and point out why some things may not work as well as they do on paper.

again, no hard feelings.

00WhiteEKy

yeah, its ok dude. I just thought it might be a good idea at first. but its true, its not worth my time. the cool cans look kinda neat though. I can make one of those pretty easily. but its not worth trying to mess with my a/c.
it would be kinda a good test to see if running a power inverter with just a tv, and then run it with a charger. i mean, the charger is going to work, becasue the inverter uses the batter to make 120 volts, and the charger is hooked to the inverter, then charges the batter. sounds good. but i should have someone kid try it for a school project. will a charger actally let the tv stay on longer? My apprentist who has been an electrician for like 35 years, he didn't know about this, he said it might work.

iH8BiTeRz

Every 10-degree decrease = 1% gain for N/A and 2% for turbochargers

keebler65

well think of it this way:

if you've ever used a power inverter, you'll know it gets warm. thats because it isnt 100% efficient, since it uses power to operate itself. the same goes for a battery charger, it gets very warm. this heat is energy and is originally from electricity. so, if you have a charger hooked up to an inverter, hooked up to a battery, charging that battery, all you are doing is stepping up the voltage to 120v with the inverter, then reducing it again with the charger back to 12v. however, each conversion you make, some of the power is literally floating away from the system in the form of heat. this is lost energy. you would be better off "connecting a battery to itself" and skipping the voltage increase and decrease. at least this way, you wouldnt loose any power. but the battery will not charge itself. does this make any sense?

00WhiteEKy

yeah, it does make sence. if it sounds too good to be true, it always is. thats what i keep telling my self. i just kinda like to ponder ideas, becasue some day someone is going to invent something totaly awesom that works. but there is no such thing as free power. but you can still get really really cheap power. not power that cost $1.65 a gallon.