honda9krpm

* I am not in any affiliation with http://www.ppgearbox.com.au. I only know the owner and currently have a gearbox at his workshop awaiting for some gears. I just want to post some info to help some gearbox killers and to see who would be interested in joinining the line with me so I can get my gearbox ealier*

http://www.ppgearbox.com
is well know for their work in making stronger gears for modified and high performance cars. Check out their websites for more details. They made a set of helical synchro gears for my friend's turbo s2k last year. The gears are direct replacement for the stock gearbox/shift fork. The box has survived many harsh driving tests so far. If you want any more testimonies, you prob have to check/google wrx and pfitzner gears.

ppg can make 3 main combinations of gears for our gearboxes; helical, straight and hybrid of the helical & straight. You then can have the option of synchro or without synchro with the straight gears.

The helical + synchro gears will be the same as the standard gearbox, just stronger. I am not sure if ppg uses stronger synchro or uses the orginal synchro.

The straight cut gears are stronger, less gearbox power loss and (I've been told this one, not sure how true) less chance of damage to bearings as the force exert on the gears are side to side and minimal/nil back-front force like the helical box.
With the straight cut gears, you can shift up without clutch. You just partiallly back off the throttle and shift. If this is done right the gear stick will suck out of your hand as it enter gear. You can shift this as humanlyquick as possible without the risk of damaging synchro or gears. This is deadly on the track. The only downside is some extra noise from the gears. PPG is well know for making gears that are not as noisy as their competitor due to their tooth profile.

The straight cut box + helical final 2 gears is a hybrid of dog box and helical. It will give you the best of both world. Quiet on the high way, strong gears where you need it and speed shifting.

With the helical synchro box, I am not sure how long the synchro will last with our high rev and high power engine. I've talked to a few experts on this and they all think the hybrid box is the way to go. We just have to learn how to drive the semi dogbox.

I am not sure how difficult it is to install the gears. My mechanic said it's easy, I don't think it's that difficult though.

There is a price list on ppg website of AUD5000 for the helical gears. The International order automatically gets 10% duty exemption. The hybrid box costs more but the owner said he might be able to do it for the same price. He also said that if there are 5 or more orders at once, he will give 15% discount. I think that will work out to be around $USD 3000 for these gears after freight. You can double check the conversion rate here http://www.xe.com

Please note that this only a gauge of interest. I will not take anyone money or order any stuffs for anyone. Once we have 5 or more serious buyers, I or anyone of us can approach ppg and organise
1. an expected delivery date
2. the order and payment

Let me know what you guys think?
Please ask question(s) only after you have check out their website?

Cheers

Suzuka Blue on Blue

why has no one responded to this post? this is good **** here and you people just ignore it like it's a hoe on 14 and K

Ferrell

We need a solution for our failing differentials....

Francesco

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ferrell &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">We need a solution for our failing differentials....</TD></TR></TABLE>

theirs one in the making

honda9krpm

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ferrell &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">We need a solution for our failing differentials....</TD></TR></TABLE>

there are actually 2 places in Australia working on the diff atm
one of the two places, K&A Motorsport, is right next to ppgearbox, so I am sure they can work something out in term of freight

give it another few more weeks for the diff
lets talk about gear box

please express your interest here so we can take the s2k to the 9 or 8 sec class

blkturbos2k

What do you have done to your car? I am not trying to be a dick but the 1st day yo got on here you started to talk ****. Why?

papa5murf

how about you guys give me one... i'll be the sponsor for the east coast usa.. hahahaha.

NtgraTrboWanaB94

congrats on the s2k, me likey to own an s2k

honda9krpm

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blkturbos2k &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What do you have done to your car? I am not trying to be a dick but the 1st day yo got on here you started to talk ****. Why?</TD></TR></TABLE>

blky I know who you addressed this to but please be more specific to avoid the confusion mate.

Let me know if I can help you with the gearbox

honda9krpm

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 03s2kblue &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">how about you guys give me one... i'll be the sponsor for the east coast usa.. hahahaha. </TD></TR></TABLE>

errrr I am only a customer waiting impatiently to get my box done 03s2kblue
I'll sponsor you for $AUD 5000 in exchange of the gears..... hahahhahha

Seriously, the gearbox and diff are serious weaknesses in our car
I just want to help pple with this.
Please be nice on this thread otherwise the mods will lock it?

honda9krpm

Interests so far
1. myself
2. fperra
3. buzilanga (Ric)
4. ?700+s2000
5.

Let's see what discount we can get with 10 pple
6.
7.
8.
9.
10

papa5murf

have you posted this on http://www.s2ki.com?? you might get more interest there.. since there are more people. and maybe even some people in australia

honda9krpm

03s2kblue, long story but lets just say that I like this forum better

papa5murf

hahah sounds good.... i think i know what you're talking about... hehehe....

honda9krpm

OK I had an unexpected afternoon off and did some more research today.

The helical gears reuse the factory synchro. So with speed shifting you are going to face the same problem as the stock box.

If drag racing/speed shifting is on your card, then the hybrid or dog box are the only options. You can have endless option with the hybrid box. However, the one that I am waiting for is 1-4 straight gears without synchro and 5-6 strengthened helical with synchro.

The expected date is 6-8 weeks.
Could the 5th person, who enquired a few days ago for the helical gears, let me know if he is interested in the hybrid box?

blues2k3

I spoke to PPG a few days ago and was told only the syncro version was available in 8 weeks...has that changed? Since I have already encountered challenges with the stock Honda syncros I would not choose to go in that direction. Also, I was informed from PPG that redline lightweight shockproof gear oil might assist with the syncro concerns. I know Redline states "not recommended for syncro type transmissions". Anyone have any luck with that. Also which unit is Elaug using as the prototype? Thanks again.

honda9krpm

I think Simon may have forgot that I want the hybrid box a few days ago. The helical gears are in Elaug's car. I was going the same path but after some careful research and talk to the local experience drag racer, I believe the best solution for us is the hybrid gearsbox. I have stated the reasons in my posts above.

I have not try the shock proof oil. I talked to redline 2+ years ago and they only recomend the ?mtl90. May be things have changed. However, I highly recommend the shock proof oil for the hybrid box....if that help blues2k3

honda9krpm

I think we may have a 5th person.
I'll wait for all the interested parties to confirm and I will get my whip cracking at simon . I'll get him to open up my spare gearbox, CAD the hybrid box and make the gears. God my gearbox has been at PPG for 4+ months aldready This is what happened when you miss the production. God if I know I will make this much power, back then, I would have join Elaug for the helical gears set

We will be the first bunch of people with straight cut gears so lets do some research for the perfect gear ratio ...so we won't change it later on. I need your helps with this one

Assuming the rear diff ratio will still be 4.11:1 (my nissan S13 diff will be this ratio).

What speed do you guys cruise? What rpm do you want to cruise with on the highway?
what do you expect to trap at 1/4?
What are the best 1-4 gears ratio for drag racing?

Once we agree on this I will try and see what ratio Simon can make for us. BTW I don't like the current ratio for the helical gears, on ppg website, that much.

blkturbos2k

I would love to have this trans but thats alot of money for gears only! You can get a F1 trans with Seq. shift for $8k. And that is the whole trans

honda9krpm

the beauty of these gears is that they fit into the stock gearbox without any modification. You still have the H pattern shift, which is a great way to enjoy a street/track car IMHO. Once you are satisfy/sick with the cars and you can always replace the stock gearbox internal back and sell these gears.

The seq shift dog box is a bitch to drive on the street. It's only good for drag and may be circuit racing. If you are keen for that may be you should talk to holinger in Melbourne, Australia. I asked them before and it's around $20,000 AUD for a 6 speed sequential box. You will need regular service and the box won't last very long!


Modified by honda9krpm at 6:50 PM 4/1/2005

honda9krpm

hmm it looks like we may struggle to get 5 sets of gears. I'll try to get someone to market/stock up these gears so that the 3 or 4 of us can still get the 15% discount and a sooner delivery date.

Suzuka Blue on Blue

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blkturbos2k &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What do you have done to your car? I am not trying to be a dick but the 1st day yo got on here you started to talk ****. Why?</TD></TR></TABLE>

umm when did i talk ****? i asked a question and i didn't know that was talking ****.... maybe you need to evaluate yourself?

Infidel

I was under the impression that a dog box is practically useless on the street. If not, can you explain why not?

As far as ideal 1/4 mile ratios, if you ask me, you'd want 4th to top out at 130mph. That should be a 9-10 second car. (Assuming you've got the power for it). I'd also want a 9000rpm shift to land at 6k in the next highest gear. That means, top speed in each gear should be:

(All speeds at 9krpm)
4th: 130mph
3rd: 85.8mph (66% of 4th)
2nd: 56.6 mph (66% of 3rd)
1st: 37.1 mph (66% of 2nd)

If we fall down to 5k ater each shift, that's more like:
4th: 130mph
3rd: 71.5mph (55% of 4th)
2nd: 39.3mph (55% of 3rd)
1st: 21.6mph (55% of 1st)

Again, that's only usefull for a very highly modified turbo car. For a S/C application, I think you'd want 4th to top out much lower. Maybe 115 or so, landing at 6k:

4th: 115
3rd: 75.9 mph
2nd: 50 mph
1st: 33 mph

Whatever you choose for your gear ratios, I think your design criteria should be first determining what your trap speed will be, set 4th to top out there, then decide what rpm you want to land on after each upshift. Each upshift should land you at the same rpm in the next highest gear at each redline shift.

I'd love to see 6th gear spin at 3000rpm @ 80mph...

How do you downshift in a dog box? Don't you need to double-clutch? Wouldn't that suck for road racing?

honda9krpm

Thanks mate&gt; I was thinking the same line. 5th and 6th becomes overdrive gears with prob around 3krpm cruise on the highway.

I've been pm a few times with similar questions so I will post the answer here. Please feel free to discuss or correct anything as I am new to this box too. I've tried to talk to as many independent people as possible. So far the one that can drive the box love it and the one that can't drive it hate it.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hi-

Can you explain how the hybrid box will feel on the street? Do you NEVER use the clutch for upshifts? (from 1 - 4).

With the stock gearbox, I've *almost* mis shifted to 1st in the 2-3 shift twice. I felt the gearbox almost slide into first, but it didn't *feel* right so I backed off before lifting the clutch. Would there be any chance of this happening with the dog box?

I've also got 4.77 gears in my diff. I know I would like 1st and 2nd go be MUCH shorter than what I've got now, with 5th @ 6th being MUCH taller.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

The first 3 gears will be noisier than the stock gear box but I doubt that this is a problem in cars that need this kind of gear box
4th gear might be the same, the rest are the same in term of noise

I've yet to drive this type of gearbox. All the cars in my friend workshop, with these boxes, hasn't got a passenger seat. I discussed with a lot of independent and knowledgable sources who have driven/own OSG, Holinger, and PPG boxes. They all rave about the PPG gears in term of less noise, ease of driving, less maintenance and better reliability than the competitors.

Driving this box is all about technique. You will have to relearn how to drive manual. It is critical that you do this before the track to avoid damage. It is slightly harder initially but once master is a joy to drive, read don't let your friend drive your car. Upshift only requires a partial back off of the throttle and shift. If this is done correctly gears will get suck into the next gear ie the shift **** get suck out of your hand. I've been told this "sucking" is a wonderful feeling by the boys club :lol:. Downshift will require a blip of the throttle to rev match. Im still not sure whether you need to double clutch or just single or no clutch for downshift. Even is you double clutch you will make it up when you upshift on the track. A lot of people use these straight gears for circuit racing. Selecting first in stop-go traffic you should clutch in, put it into 2nd then 1st in stationary. This aligns the first gear better. I am still not confident on how to do this yet. Keir Wilson, 8-9 sec skyline driver, will teach me how to drive and I will share it with you guys. If he hasn't got the right technique then no one beside Simon from PPG will

Oh if you miss-shift this box or don't revmatch properly IT WILL TELL YOU :lol: If you put it into the wrong gear IT WILL TELL YOU TOO because of incorrect revmatching.




Modified by honda9krpm at 4:53 PM 4/4/2005

honda9krpm

here is a small clip as to what shifting will be like

http://sumopictures.sumopower....n.wmv

I think the video is of a holinger H pattern box. The PPG gears should be a lot easier to shift than that.....what ever that means in a s2k is up to your imagination