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Been a while. Been saving for a long time and finally had some money set aside and a great platform car for the project finally.
First off, traded my old sr 4ws as body was in rough shape for an already turbo charged teal prelude. Done up not to badly, with a very good conditioned body, and with the intent to rebuild the motor and see what was actually done to it (as you can only go off what people say in regards to the internals). Was for sale for $3500 and received $500 for my old 4ws so net cost was $3000. Car came turbo'ed and tuned on Hondata s300 running well off ~19psi. Already had a stage 3 clutch installed as well. Ran a little rich all through out power band but ran okay until the MSD box failed. That was replaced and ran fine again until a rod bearing was spun at the track.
I removed the motor from the car and transported it to a local machine shop that specializes in high horse power motors. It has been disassembled and cleaned thoroughly. All parts that had any wear were removed and will be replaced.
The motor already had some what new dished pistons and new h beam rods. One rod bearing seemed to fail creating somewhat of a rod knock, thus the rebuild, and one piston had its rings pretty chewed up. 2 cylinder walls are slightly scuffed.
On to the re build, and I will rely on all your input about brands, part matching and quality for pricing. I'm not exactly on a tight budget but want to spend wisely. Goal is to hit 400 hp or more on pump gas. I would like to run the car at 30PSI regularly. I have a great tuner so tuning should not be an issue at all.
what I thought to put in motor:
Darton dry sleeves
JE pistons
Crower rods
Stock crank shaft
Any other major items I should consider and research? My machinist will have his input but I'd like to have my own input from people here in H-T as I value the opinions of many members here.
Whats in motor to my knowledge: And should I swap any of these items out?
-Turbonetics turbo (unsure of any specs)
-turbonetics blow off valve (was making a pigeon call or fluttering. could be compressor surge. How could I go abouts correcting that?)
-turbonetics wastegate (leaking near valve stem, unsure if that's completely normal..seems excessive)
-Msd box (new)
-stock ignitor
-stock dizzy
-stage 3 clutch
-hondata s300
-custom log manifold (Iooks like they cut apart an aftermarket header for the runners)
waiting to see what fuel pump is in car, what fuel injectors are in motor,
Also, should I keep MSD box or what sort of ignition setup should I be running?
this is all I can fit in, for the time I have. Will add more and pics soon
-30psi will make a LOT more than 400hp with a decent setup.
-30psi with a decent setup is not possible on pump gas unless you drop the compression to a point that would not be as worthwhile for overall power nor street driveability.
-ditch all the turbonetics crap as well as the log manifold. you can reuse them if you're balling on a budget, but they aren't very consistent or reliable. and it'll take major amounts of boost and e85 or race gas to hit 400hp with the log manifold.
get a tubular manifold. 50+hp gain just from that alone
-there's no need for the msd if you're running the complete stock distributor, assuming it has internal coil. if it has external coil, either use a stock coil, or use a msd coil with msd box.
-Darton dry sleeves are pretty much a necessity. the other parts you listed are also ideal.
-because it's apart, don't bother reusing the current clutch. get a new one, and make sure to either buy a new flywheel or get the current flywheel resurfaced.
-9.0-9.5:1 compression would be ideal for pump gas.
you haven't mentioned anything about top end stuff. aftermarket valve springs would give you some insurance, especially over 14psi.
-stock cams will easily reach your power goal, but bigger cams will get it there with less boost.
-stock manifold will work great, aftermarket manifold would work better. or hog out the stock manifold (gains tons in top end, but loses low end)
-will even see condition of turbonetics stuff. I was under the impression it was a decent mid grade product. If its all in bad shape needing rebuilds anyway then will splurge and upgrade.
Any brand you recommend for Turbo, wastegate, and blow off?
-will highly consider tubular manifold when we see how pricing is going with the bare minimums I need to replace. That I tend to agree. The manifold I have works for space required but isn't very efficient.
-cams may be out of my budget at this point
-aftermarket intake manifold I will do myself down the road. Its stock vtec intake with butterfly etc. There's much room for improvement there and something I can tackle with my limited time running my own business.
-No head work yet that I know of. We haven't looked at the head yet though. Been more concerned with the block issues. I will talk to builder/machinist Monday about the head.
-I will mention clutch and fly wheel items. I'm sure he'd do that bit of work for next to nothing anyway in grand scheme of things
-Compression is aimed at 9.0. I believe that was what it was at with dished pistons so want to keep it around same compression so we don't throw my current tune, too far off. Not sure if we can match the exact compression when sleeving and new pistons.
Which brings me to another question in regards to the tune, if we just modify the items I have mentioned here and kept the rest of the setup the same, the tune should not change too much correct? As long as we keep compression the same? (that's barring not changing any items you have mentioned)
more new questions:
-On pump gas I read I can hit 24psi with a good tune. I will aim for that. Not sure what Hp that will yield yet. I'm sure one of those fancy calculators online could give us an idea...
-So We shouldn't be using a stock External coil, stock dizzy, and MSD box together? I should get an MSD coil, or remove the MSD box all together? I don't really understand all the functions of the MSD box entirely anyway.
-I should consider upgrading the valve springs? Any recommendations personally?
So, to clear up some misinformation that you posted and cover a few other things.
1.) That is not a log manifold. That is a cheap eBay stainless tubular manifold. It has individual runners unlike a log. Flow wise, it's better and would provide a better knock threshold but ultimately the quality is a crapshoot. Get rid of it if you want reliability.
2.)PSI is irrelevant. It's not there to measure power, it's there to measure restriction. The more PSI you need to get to a certain power level in a setup, the more restrictive it is. Forgot PSI as a measure of anything except manifold pressure. A small turbo @ 7psi will flow much less air than a large one at the same pressure.
3.)Boost pressure does however cause valve springs to become less effective at a linear rate regardless of turbo size. 7psi of boost = 7psi of pressure pushing on the back of your intake valves. The pressure tries to push the valve open, which causes the spring to be less effective. Upgrading valvetrain is a must for a high boost application.
4.)Invest in a turbo blanket and heatwrap on the downpipe or you will be replacing alternators often.
5.)Alternative fuels or water/meth injection are a good thing to have over 400whp. Pushing your luck on pump gas is just that. You will make more power, easier, on better fuel.
6.)Get rid of that atrocious body kit.
7.)Don't believe everything you read on the internet.
So you have mentioned that it had pistons done, so what sleeves are in there, oem with some type of piston that was supposed to work with the frm, or has it been sleeved, and just not assembled or tuned right, causing damage?
I second that some heat control needs to be done, and where the heck is the waste gate, or is that turbo internally gated?
the WW kit isn't bad, but the wing is a bit much. However the kit on the white car is a rather excessive example of the F&F Era style, and the pictures make it seem that it's the same car, until you see the white car in one of the other pics. Most of us on this forum do prefer the stock look and focus on performance, but if it floats your boat then go for it.
honestly, I think a really good examination of what you are working with will help before jumping to any conclusions, as I see some good work there i.e. welds on the charge piping, so there might be more done than you think.
The wastegate is underneath on those manifolds, just before the turbo flange.
I agree about the wing. The kit could be tolerable if the car was lower and had some better wheels with a wider stance.
Correct about wastegate. Under exhaust manifold.
I am buying new rims and tires. I actually took the rims and treads off my old white prelude shown in pictures as the tires that came with this teal prelude were at zero tread and plain black winter rims. Kept good rims/tires for himself and sold on side.
I couldn't lower it. Will damage rest of underside of car where we live. Roads have huge underground pathways to let animals cross and each pathway creates a big "speed bump" in the road. You could clean off your down pipe no problem on one of those pipes; even if you weren't lowered.
I believe some of the work done on the car previously was okay mechanically speaking.
Whom ever did any electrical to the car did not fair so well. For instance ran the positive battery cable for battery locate to truck, right under and through the hole in fire wall for the clutch. You basically push on the cable any time you engage clutch pedal. Its now moved obviously. A lot of taped wire joints. No wire loom, no soldering / crimping connections. The wiring is all over the place. The boost guage / af gauge and oil pressure gauges were all flopping around along the dash and wires for those units were laid over dash as well. I will be cleaning all that up as well.
So you have mentioned that it had pistons done, so what sleeves are in there, oem with some type of piston that was supposed to work with the frm, or has it been sleeved, and just not assembled or tuned right, causing damage?
I can't see sleeves in block so I would say oem with some type of piston that was suppose to work with FRM. The rod bearing failed on one piston and threw assembly out of wack scuffing up two cylinders. Only major damage we could see so far. My guess is during re assembly with dished pistons, the bearing clearance to the journal on the crank was not perfect when they tightened down the rod bearings (and forgive me if I don't use right terminology. I don't know a lot about cars compared to some of you). Prematurely caused wear on the bearing and it failed.
Tune was okay. Stayed in proper AF no problem. Ran rich / conservative in my opinion for a Honda. Spark plugs were always good condition. Never blew any smoke. No missing or backfire either. I'd say the tune was the best thing about the setup. Whom ever did that was playing it safe with the car which is fine with me.
to add to it though:
I personally like Supertech valve springs. very good quality for a great price.
Tial is my choice for wastegate and bov.
Precision or Garrett are my preferences for turbos.
Turbonetics turbos are decent, but they are very old technology. current turbo technology allows smaller turbos to outflow older outdated larger turbos. which means same power potential with faster spool when sized properly.
No matter what you do, you'll need a re-tune, so keep that expense in mind.
For the ignition setup, you do not want to run an MSD box with the stock coil. either use an MSD coil with the MSD box, or get rid of the MSD system altogether and just run a factory ignition system. the box is basically just a capacitive discharge system for coils built for capacitive discharge. the stock coil is not designed for that.
Here is new setup completed. Car runs fantastic. Great tune provided by Evolution racing in toronto ontario. Special thanks to those guys. They took this car the final steps to getting it running great. Wish I brought my car to them firstly and only but you live and learn.
only issue is overboosting. Im told due to location of wastegate chosen by previous builder, and angle of which the flange is at (90 degree basically), that the boost eventually can't even travel down the wastegate, and results in over boosting. We can easily hit 400 hp with this setup but need to solve the overboosting issue. Question is, any input on where and how I can mount the wastegate to correct for over boosting, without a lot of rework here?
There is nothing wrong with the wastegate placement. Don't bother changing anything.
Boost creep will decrease as you increase boost. Based on that dyno chart, there's nothing to worry about by any means. Send it. Assuming you have enough fueling for it.
there are two springs in wastegate. A 7psi and another 7psi
and I digress? I don' know how an electronic boost controller works with a spring in the wastegate
Can you explain why you think it was over boosting? Because everything in the dyno chart looks totally normal to me.
And just to clarify a little, there's a difference between "over boosting" and "boost creep"
basically on dyno even with boost controller set, boost would continue to rise past set points.
tuner felt that wastegate flow is poor as flange is at 90 degree from flow path to turbine as opposed to a small angle that would improve flow into wastegate. He feels eventually once boost hits a certain level it begins to completly flow past wastegate and overbooat
90% of all manifolds have the wg at a perfect 90 degree angle from the flow with zero issues. The only way it'd be an issue is if the turbo is way too big and the wg is way too small. Which is not the case for your setup.
You said you have two 7psi springs in your wg. The dyno chart shows 14.9psi. That is 100% normal, considering your spring setup is for 14psi (7+7). Assuming of course you do in fact have two springs of different diameters that are rated for exactly 7.0psi, which doesn't actually exist, so I do question this too, because it will hugely affect your results.
You can't use a boost controller to lower the boost. You can only use it to raise the boost. Meaning if you have a wg set up for 14psi, it's impossible to run less than 14psi. If your tuner thinks this statement is wrong, find a new tuner. If you want less than 14psi, remove the wg springs and run a lower spring pressure.
My suggestion is tell us exactly what WG you are using, and what COLOR springs are installed.
As an example, if you had a Tial MV-S, with a black spring (8.70psi) and a red spring (5.80psi), your overall spring pressure would be rated for 14.50psi, but can vary up to 1psi, sometimes more.
90% of all manifolds have the wg at a perfect 90 degree angle from the flow with zero issues. The only way it'd be an issue is if the turbo is way too big and the wg is way too small. Which is not the case for your setup.
You said you have two 7psi springs in your wg. The dyno chart shows 14.9psi. That is 100% normal, considering your spring setup is for 14psi (7+7). Assuming of course you do in fact have two springs of different diameters that are rated for exactly 7.0psi, which doesn't actually exist, so I do question this too, because it will hugely affect your results.
You can't use a boost controller to lower the boost. You can only use it to raise the boost. Meaning if you have a wg set up for 14psi, it's impossible to run less than 14psi. If your tuner thinks this statement is wrong, find a new tuner. If you want less than 14psi, remove the wg springs and run a lower spring pressure.
My suggestion is tell us exactly what WG you are using, and what COLOR springs are installed.
As an example, if you had a Tial MV-S, with a black spring (8.70psi) and a red spring (5.80psi), your overall spring pressure would be rated for 14.50psi, but can vary up to 1psi, sometimes more.
Send it. Knowing all the info now, everything seems good. 14.9psi from a 14psi wg is completely normal. And that's a really big gate, so there's no concerns of whether the wg is too small or anything. If you want lower boost, you'll just need to swap the wg springs out for others with lower ratings.
Send it. Knowing all the info now, everything seems good. 14.9psi from a 14psi wg is completely normal. And that's a really big gate, so there's no concerns of whether the wg is too small or anything. If you want lower boost, you'll just need to swap the wg springs out for others with lower ratings.
Thanks
so back to the question...
Anything left that can cause overboosting?
electronic boost controller controlled by hondata s300 is the only item I have not tested
Things we have checked
wastegate is fine itself in sizing etc.
wastegate location is okay we are assuming
fueling is adequate
the tune is solid; I know this to be close to factual
car is going back to the builder in 3 weeks; just looking for answers to verify what a shop tells me to make sure there are no ... misconceptions..
09-08-2016, 02:46 PM
turbo prelude re build
