Integralove00

I've been working with a friend to swap an H22A4 engine in a '98 Prelude. He bought an H22A JDM motor by mistake... We swapped the oil pump w/sensors, crank gear, balance shaft gear, distributor/ext. coil, intake manifold, and thermostat housing... Car starts right up but can't maintain idle once the throttle is blipped/dropped, throws a code P1361. I've replaced the CKP/TDC sensor and the external coil asms, but I get the same code. I believe both sets of sensors were aligned with the respective recesses in the oil pump housing. I've checked the wiring for continuity across CKP/TDC and CMP plugs... So far I haven't found a shorted wire or open circuit.

I thought maybe I left a spacer out on the crank shaft... Perhaps between the oil pump and timing gear, or between the timing and balance shaft gear... But the H22A4 parts explosions I've seen show no such spacer, they just show a timing belt gear, balance shaft gear and the damper pulley as shown in the following parts explosion... I don't think this engine had a belt guide/spacer in the timing/balance shaft gear train. Could anyone confirm? Does it sound like this could be an issue of sensor not aligning with the timing gear or balancer gear?

Otherwise, I think I need to try wiring direct to and from the sensor to verify there's a wiring issue.

The JDM engine came with a distributor (with internal coil and internal sensors)... Do I have any wiring option to run the JDM distributor (OBD1) and ignore the sensors around the crank?

Also, Once this is resolved I should have a H22A4 long block to sell if anyone's interested. The old engine was oil starved, the balance shaft seal came out and eventually the balance shaft belt was ejected from the timing cover.

thirsk66

iTrader: (2)

Nope no spacer needed there and depending on which distributor model you have on the JDM h22 its either a 10 pin or 8 pin distributor, you can go about it two ways. Wire it up according this DIY guide: Honda Prelude H22 USDM to JDM Distributor wiring.
Or if you have an 8 pin distributor you can order an adapter harness from Ryire here: OBD2 USDM Prelude to OBD2 8-pin Distributor Adapter

JRCivic1

Did you use the crank timing gear and the balance shaft crank pulley from the H22A4 ??? If you used those two pieces found on the original H22A and only moved over the oil pump and sensors... this is your issue. If you don't want to go back in to replace these parts, you can choose to create a wiring adapter plug/harness that connects to the 4 pin plug where the oil pump/crank pulley sensors plug in, then run the other end around to the distributor area and use the JDM H22A distributor and simply pin the four wires into their appropriate locations in the 8 pin plug.

Integralove00

thirsk66: We are currently using the H22A4 distributor but we had read briefly about the distributor differences etc... I may go the route of the RyWire kit to get this thing running. I really don't want to open the timing belt covers again for diagnostics. We already replaced every gasket but the head gasket and oil cooler gasket.

JRCivic: No unfortunately it's not that easy, we are using the correct timing belt and balance shaft gears.


I am leaning toward the RyWire kit but the symptom is still concerning... A truly intermittent signal on only the TDC sensor is almost as if the crank shaft or the timing pulley itself has end play (moving horizontally, along the shaft). Using an oscilloscope for diagnosis could be very beneficial, if I could get my hands on one.

thirsk66

iTrader: (2)

holmesnmanny

I would think maybe the tdc connector at the front balance shaft might be damaged or not all the way plugged in.

Integralove00

Holmesnmanny: No, that can't be the problem... I've already replaced the sensor.

I.E. The problem is either due to sensor proximity to rotating mass on the gear... Or there's an issue in the engine wiring. I've ordered the Rywire kit as a back up, but I will probably disassemble and look everything over one more time. I'm not comfortable taking the distributor route without understanding why the TDC signal is intermittent.

Thanks for posting that Thirsk66, I will run through that troubleshooting before I disassemble the belt systems!

holmesnmanny

I didn't say the sensor, I said the connector.

And the sensor is at the front balance shaft, not the distributor. I'm not sure why a rywire kit is being floated as a solution. If the wiring is bad as you say, then you simply pick up some shielded wire and run it directly to the ecu connector, making sure to ground the sheath.

My guess is you are using the wrong front balance gear.

thirsk66

iTrader: (2)

Holmesnmanny the Rywire harness was given as an option if he wanted to bypass the TDC at the crank and make use of the jdm distributor that is all. Its not a solution I was just giving him options since he asked if there were any at the time. But I do agree that something is not right if the OP checked for continuity at the plugs and still is having an issue.
Integralove00 do you happen to have a different ecu you could put in the car and see if that makes any difference at all? And are there any cut or spliced wires on the engine harness or ECU wire harness inside the cabin where it plugs directly into the ecu?

Integralove00

I only changed the two gears on the crankshaft: Timing belt drive and balance shaft drive gears. I believed the front and rear balance shaft gears to be the same on both H22A4 and H22A engines, are they not? I included/labeled a few images below, the images were someone else's from the net, just used them for reference.

I bought the Rywire kit as a last resort. Hypothetically, were I to not have a wiring issue and still not be able to correct the sensor proximity issue (i.e. were crankshaft endplay causing the problem). I would use the H22A distributor and Rywire kit to get the car in operation and to the customer. While that scenario would need to be resolved in the relatively short term... that's beyond the scope of work I've agreed to at this time.

On another note, using the Rywire kit and the H22A distributor would be a very fast way to proof test the wiring.

I don't believe there are any cut or spliced wires on the engine harness. The only other ECU I have is the one that came with the JDM H22A.

thirsk66

iTrader: (2)

So just to be certain you swapped over #16 and #17 gears from the h22a4 to the jdm h22a that are in your picture on your first post correct?

Integralove00

Yes thirsk66, I'm certain I used the correct gears. I've actually made that mistake before with the balance shaft pulley. The good news is that my rywire kit shipped. Between it and your troubleshooting guide, I will be able to find the root cause of the issue this weekend. I will let you know what I find... Thanks for the input!

Integralove00

Update... Installed the Rywire kit and JDM distributor: Car fired right up, idled and cycled through 1-4k rpms a few times then it started giving a similar stalling issue. No P1361 code this time, in fact there's no code at all. The car just sputters and stalls out like it can't find the idle point or even slightly out of time.

I think the issue has to be related to the timing belt. The kit used came from Rock Auto and had the wrong idlers (possibly a kit for an Accord?). The belts appeared identical so we moved ahead. I wonder if there was a slight difference in length or one tooth difference perhaps? I counted the teeth on the balance shaft belt but not the timing belt.

The hydraulic tensioner was also replaced with an aftermarket assembly, I'm not sure if there's a failure mode for it that would allow this behavior?
I.E.
Idle: OK
Throttle: OK
Off revs: Not OK > Tensioner sticking, won't make/take up slack in belt

The idler may more likely be the issue. After all, the car fires right up and will even run ok after sitting for a while (perhaps once hydraulic system has balanced).

What are your thoughts?

Integralove00

So, went back into the timing assy. didn't see any smoking guns... took the belt off and found the belt had 156 teeth instead of 155. Swapped the belt and tensioner back to the one supplied with the motor. Seems to be running like a charm now, but only ran it for a few minutes due to it being midnight. going to verify with a longer run time tomorrow. This is what happens when you get in a hurry and use belts that are in a kit full of wrong parts.

thirsk66

iTrader: (2)

Sounds like you figured it out and definitely sounds like Rock Auto sent you the wrong kit or you ordered the wrong one by mistake. Keep us updated on the test drive.

Integralove00

The stalling problem continues once car warms up. I think it's related to IACV from what I've read. I get no CEL and it only happens when the car has come up to temps a little. Thirsk66, do you have a vacuum hose diagram for the H22A4 manifold? I can't find it searching the web and I don't have a helms on hand...

The P1361 was a sensor proximity issue, the alignment peg was a little cocked and not fully aligned with the pulley. So apparently the 156 tooth belt was working, despite being the wrong kit.

thirsk66

iTrader: (2)

Try taking the IACV off and cleaning it pretty well, and check to make sure your TPS is calibrated to the correct .45V at idle.

Integralove00

I compared your vacuum diagram to the car, it appears to be correct. Although, there are a few differences in this intake manifold and the one in the picture. This is the intake manifold that was in the car originally. Is it really likely that I need to clean the IAC valve or check the voltage on the TPS?

Which sensors control idle that are affected by temperature?

Thanks for the help on a holiday and weekend!

thirsk66

iTrader: (2)

No worries we are all here to help or attempt to help you and offer you ideas on what could solve your issues. I would for sure clean the IACV and see if that helps at all since it is the sensor to control your idle. And I would just check to make sure your TPS is set at the correct voltage of .45V or if you have a obd2 scan tool that plugs into the obd2 port the TPS should be set at 9.0%. That is how I set mine and its much easier then getting your multi-meter out and messing with it that way, but both ways works and gets you the same end result.
And a couple sensors that is affected by temperature is your intake air temperature sensor on the manifold and your coolant temperature sensor down on the head under the distributor. If you have an extra IACV you can throw that on there and see if it helps any.

Integralove00

I pulled the IACV off the manifold and cleaned it on the manifold side, but I didn't break the coolant lines. Reinstalled for the same result.

I also bled the coolant system again with hope I'd burp out some air that might be trapped in the system (ran the car with open radiator for 5 mins at 2.5k rpms until the fans tripped, had pre bled with the screw too). No change...

I have a very basic code reader Actron CP9125, I don't think it allows me to set TPS. I will try the PITA calibration procedure tomorrow.

Car seems to be running rich at some point, as there's a soot filled water puddle below the exhaust. I'm not sure if this is always or only when the car starts sputtering/stalling. Or maybe it's just general condensation in the exhaust.

thirsk66

iTrader: (2)

Oh no man you have to take it off completely and clean the inside of the valve by spraying it with degreaser or some carb cleaner. So take it off remove the coolant lines and do it the right way. Cleaning the manifold wont do much if anything. As for your scan or code reader hook it up and see what options it gives you as far as live data. Take your intake air temp sensor out and make sure its in good shape and not melted or anything. Also is the car running with the o2 sensors in and working?

Integralove00

I cleaned the sensor with carb cleaner... I just didn't clean the coolant side of it. Didn't see how that could be a realistic failure mode since there was no negative impact from engine failure to the coolant system.

I will check on the IAT sensor, maybe there's a bad connection there or is melted... Although I'd be really surprised if that would cause the car to just die like this, after all that sensor was operational when the last engine was in the car. This car wasn't abused at all.

O2 sensors are working, rear was replaced as it gave a CEL on start up.

My scan tool has no live data, only the CEL output. I really bought it for makes other than Honda that don't have the jumper functionality.

I actually just found a thread (on an original engine) with what sounds like identical failure modes to mine. The person went through nearly every sensor replacement/recalibration... Apparently the problem was due to valve adjustment out of spec. Which I did not check, I also did not check the compression.
01 Prelude stalls every time I don't throttle - annoyed and worried - HELP!!!!!!

thirsk66

iTrader: (2)

Yes check the IAT sensor and do a valve adjustment I just did mine yesterday and its super easy and a good matinence item to keep up on. I just hope you figure this out seems like you been chasing your tail like I have on my own startup issue.

Integralove00

I was about to adjust valves using a Helms manual I downloaded, when I decided to look for a better vacuum line diagram. I have since resolved the issue, I had reversed the vacuum lines going to and from the EGR Control Solenoid Valve. So I probably had pressure where I wanted vacuum and so on...

I swapped these to match the diagram below and ran the car up to cooling fan actuation temp, then I dropped the throttle. Car idled as designed, gave it a few more blips to verify. This time I really believe the issues are resolved.

thirsk66

iTrader: (2)

Damn that is the exact diagram I was going to provide you with but I stupidly gave you the other one my bad on that. I really need to stop trying help people out when I am pretty much brain dead after working. And that is great the car is running smoothly and as designed. Always nice to hear people solving their issues.