ScareyH22A

I have a 5th gen and my ex got me Skunk2 coilovers. When I used to work at a performance shop (way before full spring/shock kits were available for Hondas) we used to sell coilovers such as the Ground Control kits and VIS kits. I remember that, those coilover kits were bouncy as hell.

Anyways.. since she got me the kit, I wasn't gonna just sell it or some **** so I installed them and ofcourse, my car is bouncy as ****. So I invested in some Tokico 5-way shocks. But the car was still pretty bouncy. Better but not great.

So I got the Tanabe front and rear sway bars. Now, the car feels a lot better and is planted through corners but still noticably bouncy. I want a solid BMW like ride. How the hell can I do this?

Should I get rid of the Skunk2's and just get a set of Eibach springs or a set of Neuspeed's or something? I hate having my car slammed and from what I remember, the Eibach's weren't bouncy. And the Neuspeed's were solid but too low.

I've ridden in an RSX, del Sol, Integra 4 door with Tein suspension. The full shock/spring combo thing and I don't like those either. Even those seem kinda bouncy. And stiff as hell but not very solid.

How can I get a solid ride like a BMW without being race car like stiff and w/o the unstable bounce? Any suspension guru's in here?

SoOHiGH

i got Eibach with koni yellows and its not bouncy at all. its kinda low but its not too bad. i had the skunk coilovers with koni yellows way back in the day when it was just skunk and not skunk2. and that thing was bouncy as ****.

spoolude

most cheap coilovers under 500 bux= bouncy
i have the same set up, hate it handles like an s2k. but i still hate bumps
the only coilovers worth the money are jic or tein

frozenb

u consider JIC good??? good luck man..they blow like hell
Tein are good only the grading is above RA.

skunk had a bit higher spring rate(but still i think it's not enough)...we all know. if u want comfort, i perfer some pro kit...but still u better stay with stock...I actually hate eibach....they....really nothing. only for look and they kill ur suspension cuz they sit somehow low

I have skunk2 with koni set to the stiffest setting...560lbs all around....i felt they soft as hell....

mgags7

560 is really hard....there is no way those springs make 560 and someone would consider them bouncy.....

a set of tein ha coils would do you good.....they are a good set for the prelude and definitely are not "bouncy"....

Firedrake

I have skunk2's and KYB AGX's on the highest dampening setting and the car rides great.....then again, I've been riding around in cars like that for like 8 years, and I have enough fat on my *** that a lot of the extra vibration gets absorbed before it hits my spine
Brian

ScareyH22A

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Firedrake &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have skunk2's and KYB AGX's on the highest dampening setting and the car rides great.....then again, I've been riding around in cars like that for like 8 years, and I have enough fat on my *** that a lot of the extra vibration gets absorbed before it hits my spine
Brian</TD></TR></TABLE>

I've been driving lowered cars for 11 years. I know what stiff, bouncy, and bone jarring feels like. When I used to be into slammed rides, I had Neuspeed race springs on my Integra. That was bone jarring. You can hear the hit's on the shock towers. As a matter of fact, some of my friends' cars even got dents on their shock towers in the engine bay. Anyways.. I decided to go lower so I cut a coil off the front and two off the back. That was not as stiff and felt much smoother, kinda like the BMW ride I was talking about. ******* coilover's are all either bouncy or compensate for short overall length by raising spring rate and become bone jarring. Anyone else got any suggestions?

eluder33

try some koni yellows with lowering springs. I've got sustec pink lowering springs which are made by tanabe and I have those on tokiko blue struts and the ride is great and it handles nicely.

I say if you want to get away fron the "bone jaring ride" stay away from all these "add-on coilovers" they suck for having a smooth ride you won't find one that is as good as a good lowering spring. with the koni you could dial in the stiffness you want which might get you close to the bmw ride but it'll never be just like it.

bb6h22a

The amount of mis-information and outright bullshit in this thread is ******* amazing.

We've had 10000000000000000000000001 threads about "coilovers" where myself and other members of this forum have gone over what it takes to get a properly MATCHED spring & damper setup.

bb6h22a

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mgags7 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">560 is really hard....there is no way those springs make 560 and someone would consider them bouncy.....

a set of tein ha coils would do you good.....they are a good set for the prelude and definitely are not "bouncy"....</TD></TR></TABLE>

Wrong. TEIN HAs came with a 12kg/mm front spring and 8kg/mm rear spring, roughly 700# front and 450# rear.

As I've said over and over again it's about complimenting the damper valving to the spring rate.

Think about the rebound stroke of a shock, what is it supposed to do? I'll give you a clue: Rebound is talked about in terms of fast and slow, now how would those to terms relate to the movment of a spring?

ScareyH22A

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bb6h22a &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Wrong. TEIN HAs came with a 12kg/mm front spring and 8kg/mm rear spring, roughly 700# front and 450# rear.

As I've said over and over again it's about complimenting the damper valving to the spring rate.

Think about the rebound stroke of a shock, what is it supposed to do? I'll give you a clue: Rebound is talked about in terms of fast and slow, now how would those to terms relate to the movment of a spring?</TD></TR></TABLE>

So how the **** does all your knowledge help ME?

bb6h22a

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ScareyH22A &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

So how the **** does all your knowledge help ME?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Check it out Sparky, do a search, do some of your own leg work and then start off with at least a clue as to how to get your problem solved; i.e., do you even know what the spring rates are ?

ScareyH22A

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bb6h22a &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Check it out Sparky, do a search, do some of your own leg work and then start off with at least a clue as to how to get your problem solved; i.e., do you even know what the spring rates are ?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hey, if you've got nothing progressive to add, stay off this thread. Otherwise, since it sounds like you know what you're talking about, enlighten us w/some tangible information.

bb6h22a

Here you go, it's from another thread about "coilovers" from the RoadRace forum.

It was in reply to someone else but the general jist of it should come accross.

Look at that, your need for instant gratification has been appeased.

Of particular interest, should be the last few paragraphs about dampers...

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Take a second, and listen up.

There's no universal spring rate that fits all applications- yet you're arguing that all these people running spring rates in excess of 200lbs ( your purportedly ideal rate) somehow have gone wrong and need to re-evaluate their setups but all you've based your argument on is conjecture, opinion and subjective conclusion - you're arguing against the same methods you're employing.

So, which is it? Are you right, wrong, chicken little or humpy dumpy all broken up 'cause he fell of the "Do as I say, not as I do" wall of hypocratic fame?

Gotta break some eggs to make an omlette, man. Ya dig?

Anyway, gotta move on, this butter's startin' to burn...

For the record, Tein HAs came w/ a 12kg and an 8kg spring for the 5th gen prelude. That's roughly 670lbs front and 448lbs rear. So there's yet another real world -empirical- data point that avers against yours. The odds are stackin' up humpty, I'm ready for eggs.

So let's talk spring rates and how to choose them, because it's clear that you don't know ... A traditional way to decide on, or talk about spring rates, demands that we talk about the car's (in question) suspension's natural frequency.

To calc the natural frequency you've got to first determine the suspension's vertical stiffness (SVS; aka wheel rate) and the sprung weight.

The SVS is defined as the amount of force required to move the sus. vertically by one inch.

So, the SVS = spring stiffness / (mechanical adv.)^2

The mechanical adv here is meant to mean the amount of leverage w/in the suspension.

This term ,SVS, now allows you to compute the natural frequency, which is

Nf = 3.13 x The sq. root of (SVS per wheel/sprung weight per wheel)

A rule of thumb is that'd you'd want a natural frequency of about 2 for a race car but as you can see, the amount of sprung weight seen at each wheel is very important as is the amount of mech leverage / corner and both of these factors change with each ind car, therefore, it would be very difficult to blindly apply one, blanket spring rate to everyone.

By the way, do you see how sprung weight factors in? Are you wondering how that's determined? Good, I'll tell you, it's determined empirically and that's done by cornerweighting, now, because this has an effect on our above equations and because everyone's able to cornerweight their cars, there is a general rule of thumb that people can individually use to determine their spring rates - don't worry, it's just a guide, not some silly pre-determined, irrational 200lbs rate.

It goes like this:

Race Rates are usually 1:1 (or higher) cornerweight to spring rate or higher

Road and Track rates are usually .75-.9:1 cornerweight to spring rate

Street rate would probably be a .33:1 cornerweight to spring rate

So, for example, the front of my prelude is 1800 lbs, 900 per wheel.

The rear is 1200, 600 per wheel.

Therefore, my HA rates fall about in the middle. Pretty good.

Now, you'll also remember that vehicle weight has an effect on spring rate for the reasons mentioned above (the effect on wheel rate, for one) so you'll see how this rule of thumb could be applied individually because it allows one to determine their cornerweight and then select their spring rates according to their individual use and application. Also remember that vehicle weight, or the reduction therof, has an effect on spring rate; ie., an 800 lbs spring is more than 800lbs on the same car, that's lost 100lbs.

One very important caveat, however, is that everyone remember that the springs, suspension and most importantly the tires can only work as well as the shock's valving is able to.

Most people overspring their cars w/out ever bothering to change or even inquire about their valving, or they run their car off the bumpstops, using a progressive spring that goes to an infinite spring rate when it's railing off the bumpstops which then makes the dampers totally ineffective. They then opine over their springs "sucking." All the while, they're to blame.

Everyone here, should call the spring and shock manufacture they're interested in using, and go over all these factors with them; namely, measuring wheel rate, cornerweighting and to have a very clear idea of how they'll be using their car; racing, grocery getter, dual purpose, etc. and go from there.

You can't leave this stuff up to chance, it's like makin' an omlette ... you gotta know when to flip it and it's all in the know how.


That's all for now, gotta get back to the grill...


</TD></TR></TABLE>

ScareyH22A

Thanx. Good info. Unfortunately, I'm very aware of spring rate. And I'm also aware that good adjustable suspension system's are marketed towards race use and therefore, too 'bone jarring' for my taste. If you've read my initial statement, you're aware that I'm not looking for 'race' suspension. I'm just looking for a firm ride w/o all the drama.

That said, is there a shock out there that'll keep my Skunk2's from bouncing? And realistically, would I be paying out of my *** for a custom kit? I think I'm better off keeping my Tokico 5-ways and changing to a set of Eibachs.

What I'm really looking for is real world experiences from people w/Koni/Tokico/KYB style shocks and more typical spring setups.

bb6h22a

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ScareyH22A &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Thanx. Good info. Unfortunately, I'm very aware of spring rate. And I'm also aware that good adjustable suspension system's are marketed towards race use and therefore, too 'bone jarring' for my taste. If you've read my initial statement, you're aware that I'm not looking for 'race' suspension. I'm just looking for a firm ride w/o all the drama.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Again, marketing is bullshit; see all those beer commercials with all the girls swooning over the fat guy cause he's drinking a brew? Bullshit.

You're not understanding your problem dude. Plain and simple. A car becomes bone jarring when the damper's valving can't DAMPEN the spring's motion, then the car is essentially undamped and at the mercy of the spring's osscillation - that's why you get a bouncy, bone jarring ride, becasuse your shocks aren't doing dick.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That said, is there a shock out there that'll keep my Skunk2's from bouncing? And realistically, would I be paying out of my *** for a custom kit? I think I'm better off keeping my Tokico 5-ways and changing to a set of Eibachs. </TD></TR></TABLE>

5 way Illuminas aren't that great; they're a good OEM upgrade but OEM spring rates are in the 200# per corner range.

What are your spring rates? You haven't told us yet and I've asked like six times now. If they're in the 500# range, you're looking at a shock like the Koni Sport but that would be at the upper range of its valving ability.

What are your spring rates?


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What I'm really looking for is real world experiences from people w/Koni/Tokico/KYB style shocks and more typical spring setups.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

What your looking for is someone to say "This feels good." Which doesn't make any sense because how is it supposed to apply to you? Do you share a brain with the other guy?

I get pissed off at threads like this because people just want to be reassured and they're unwilling to think.
Why are you so unwilling to pick up the phone and call around yourself to bolster the amount of info you're able to bring into it?

bad-monkey

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ScareyH22A &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Thanx. Good info. Unfortunately, I'm very aware of spring rate. And I'm also aware that good adjustable suspension system's are marketed towards race use and therefore, too 'bone jarring' for my taste. If you've read my initial statement, you're aware that I'm not looking for 'race' suspension. I'm just looking for a firm ride w/o all the drama.

That said, is there a shock out there that'll keep my Skunk2's from bouncing? And realistically, would I be paying out of my *** for a custom kit? I think I'm better off keeping my Tokico 5-ways and changing to a set of Eibachs.

What I'm really looking for is real world experiences from people w/Koni/Tokico/KYB style shocks and more typical spring setups.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

what is trying to be communicated to you is that it's not the skunk2 setup that's making your teeth rattle. it's the springs on the s2's.

"ride quality" is basically a function of spring rate/type, and which dampers you're using. if you were to get 200# prog. springs for your skunk 2/illumina's the ride would be just as nice as if you were on an OEM suspension--GRANTED that you have enough travel and aren't riding on the bumpstops. also remember that with adjustable shock settings, softer isn't always better for ride quality. The softest setting on my koni's (used w/ my 450/550 GC setup) leads to massive float/bumpsteer issues, and a quarter turn firmer than full soft leads to much better ride quality and handling.

ScareyH22A

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bad-monkey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what is trying to be communicated to you is that it's not the skunk2 setup that's making your teeth rattle. it's the springs on the s2's.

"ride quality" is basically a function of spring rate/type, and which dampers you're using. if you were to get 200# prog. springs for your skunk 2/illumina's the ride would be just as nice as if you were on an OEM suspension--GRANTED that you have enough travel and aren't riding on the bumpstops. also remember that with adjustable shock settings, softer isn't always better for ride quality. The softest setting on my koni's (used w/ my 450/550 GC setup) leads to massive float/bumpsteer issues, and a quarter turn firmer than full soft leads to much better ride quality and handling.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I totally understand about the spring rate versus shock valving. But why is it then that even matched sets from Tein seem to be a bit bouncy? Whether they're the low end or high end set, they should be factory matched for specific vehicles right? That's the whole thing. On paper, everything works out fine but in reality, you'd want a lower spring rate (longer and thinner given they're made of the same material and built through same construction methods), taller overall height, and realistic shock valving for everyday roads. Especially if you're not driving on glass smooth track surfaces.

bad-monkey

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ScareyH22A &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I totally understand about the spring rate versus shock valving. But why is it then that even matched sets from Tein seem to be a bit bouncy? Whether they're the low end or high end set, they should be factory matched for specific vehicles right? That's the whole thing. On paper, everything works out fine but in reality, you'd want a lower spring rate (longer and thinner given they're made of the same material and built through same construction methods), taller overall height, and realistic shock valving for everyday roads. Especially if you're not driving on glass smooth track surfaces.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

well, bb6h22a mentioned harmonic frequencies earlier. Matching damper valving to spring rates makes sure extraneous oscillations are cut out (ideally compression, then rebound, and no other oscillations); however, as you go higher and higher with spring rates, the harmonic frequency becomes higher and higher--a frequency of 5 hz (which is 1s/5s per period) will feel much more gradual and "smooth" (depending on how much displacement there is with each oscillation) than a frequency of 60 hz, given the same displacement. 900# springs with proper dampers will feel much harsher than 300# springs with proper dampers, but that's an obvious thing that i'm sure everyone can understand.

however, getting the right dampers matched to an appropriate spring rate and maintaining sufficient suspension travel is the key to a smooth ride or whatever you're after, and it isn't equipment dependent with s2 coilovers or GC's. You can buy ERS or hypercoil springs in a variety of lengths, ID's, spring rates, and progressive or linear--you can use these springs to replace whatever springs you have on now while keeping the benefits of running a high quality sleeve (which i'm not so sure that Sk2 coilovers are).

in short, find out the dimensions and rate of the springs you're currently on, and get different springs accordingly. chances are, you can swap your rear springs (which are likely softer than your fronts) to the front, and buy a pair of ERS springs for the rear for $50. say in the 200# range.

chitownrida

scaryh22 most those sleeve coilovers are gonna be hard/bouncy as hell .. what about something like a tanabe superdown (df210) spring?? increases the spring rate i think around 15%, but the ride is still very good ..

bad-monkey

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chitownrida &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">scaryh22 most those sleeve coilovers are gonna be hard/bouncy as hell .. what about something like a tanabe superdown (df210) spring?? increases the spring rate i think around 15%, but the ride is still very good .. </TD></TR></TABLE>

just to clarify, it's not the coilover sleeve that leads to "bounciness" it's the spring that it's holding up and the shock that's damping that spring.

there is less guesswork when it comes to coilover sleeves. find the right dimensioned spring in the rate you want, set ride ht., and drive.

ScareyH22A

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bad-monkey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well, bb6h22a mentioned harmonic frequencies earlier. Matching damper valving to spring rates makes sure extraneous oscillations are cut out (ideally compression, then rebound, and no other oscillations); however, as you go higher and higher with spring rates, the harmonic frequency becomes higher and higher--a frequency of 5 hz (which is 1s/5s per period) will feel much more gradual and "smooth" (depending on how much displacement there is with each oscillation) than a frequency of 60 hz, given the same displacement. 900# springs with proper dampers will feel much harsher than 300# springs with proper dampers, but that's an obvious thing that i'm sure everyone can understand.

however, getting the right dampers matched to an appropriate spring rate and maintaining sufficient suspension travel is the key to a smooth ride or whatever you're after, and it isn't equipment dependent with s2 coilovers or GC's. You can buy ERS or hypercoil springs in a variety of lengths, ID's, spring rates, and progressive or linear--you can use these springs to replace whatever springs you have on now while keeping the benefits of running a high quality sleeve (which i'm not so sure that Sk2 coilovers are).

in short, find out the dimensions and rate of the springs you're currently on, and get different springs accordingly. chances are, you can swap your rear springs (which are likely softer than your fronts) to the front, and buy a pair of ERS springs for the rear for $50. say in the 200# range.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Sounds good. I just ordered a set of Eibach Sports and I'll try those out with my Tokico shocks. If they're not not I'm looking for, I'll take your advice and reuse my sleeves and order some new springs for them. Thanx, great info

Innovation

Coilovers are trendy and most of the time ride like ***... I prefer a good progressive spring and valve matched damper

2.2SICKLUDE

I have the skunk 2 coilovers and tokico 5 way, mine is fine on my 4th gen lude. but if you want it to be like a bmw then u need to spend some cash.... Like some of the guys here.. i'll go with some teins

bad-monkey

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDMH22NLINE4 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> i'll go with some teins</TD></TR></TABLE>

tein's won't make your car handle like a bmw. you're smoking crack or trying to hard to jump on the tein bandwagon.

just because it's green and comes from japan doesn't mean it's the best thing since latex condoms.

you guys make me want to give up posting anything technical about suspensions for the rest of my damn life.