vinuneuro

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by prelittlelude &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> its the out of balance crank/rod/piston assembly that rides on a small cusion of oil when comparing it to newer honda motors.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

What do you mean?

prelittlelude

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vinuneuro &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

What do you mean?</TD></TR></TABLE>

what i mean is that the h23 crank has such a large stroke that any imbalance in a huge rotating assembly like that can create vibrations of many different frequencys and even vibrate so bad that it breaks through the cusion of oil and makes contact with the bearing. if the contact it frequent or hard enough you can spin a bearing. newer large stroke honda cranks have since upgraded to a 55mm main which provides a bigger oil cussion.. i don't know how else to say it..

vinuneuro

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by prelittlelude &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what i mean is that the h23 crank has such a large stroke that any imbalance in a huge rotating assembly like that can create vibrations of many different frequencys and even vibrate so bad that it breaks through the cusion of oil and makes contact with the bearing. if the contact it frequent or hard enough you can spin a bearing. newer large stroke honda cranks have since upgraded to a 55mm main which provides a bigger oil cussion.. i don't know how else to say it..</TD></TR></TABLE>

Wasn't sure what you were getting at with the newer honda comparison. I understand now.

PreludeZ

hey guys, amazing thread with awesome info!!!

but after all I still do have a two questions:

1) now I have 2,3 4ws, some p13 (also p14) ECUs are marked 4WS or 2WS but do I need to use p13 4WS? I know this question sounds stupid and you automatically answer "of course you need p13 4WS" but when I was searching in wiring diagrams, I didnot found any connection between engine ecu and 4ws ecu. Anybody knows where is the truth?

2) all of you who has H23 VTEC frankensteins do use unmodified p13 ecu? I mean, stock fuel maps, stock preignition, etc. Because there is no comment about ecu modification in whole thread. The reason for this question is that the frankenstein has different characteristics, right? I know that its only 0,1 liter difference, but anyway...

prelittlelude

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PreludeZ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">hey guys, amazing thread with awesome info!!!

but after all I still do have a two questions:

1) now I have 2,3 4ws, some p13 (also p14) ECUs are marked 4WS or 2WS but do I need to use p13 4WS? I know this question sounds stupid and you automatically answer "of course you need p13 4WS" but when I was searching in wiring diagrams, I didnot found any connection between engine ecu and 4ws ecu. Anybody knows where is the truth?

2) all of you who has H23 VTEC frankensteins do use unmodified p13 ecu? I mean, stock fuel maps, stock preignition, etc. Because there is no comment about ecu modification in whole thread. The reason for this question is that the frankenstein has different characteristics, right? I know that its only 0,1 liter difference, but anyway...</TD></TR></TABLE>

i am not a 4ws buf so i don't know exactly, but from my knowledge the 4ws computer was in the back of the prelude in the trunk, i would think any ecu should be fine but i could be wrong. the 4ws unit must receive it inputs from something, wether thats a standalone sensor or the ecu i don't know,,

second the reason no one talks about the ecus in this thread is because an h23vtec is considered a built motor, its not just header and exahust, you could probably get away with runing a p13 but it will be far from and optimal tune, most people after building an h23vtec with go and get it tuned on the dyno, thats the best thing to do,

PreludeZ

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by prelittlelude &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
i am not a 4ws buf so i don't know exactly, but from my knowledge the 4ws computer was in the back of the prelude in the trunk, i would think any ecu should be fine but i could be wrong. the 4ws unit must receive it inputs from something, wether thats a standalone sensor or the ecu i don't know,
</TD></TR></TABLE>

yes you are right, 4ws ecu is situated behind the left rear seat, but some engine ecu's are marked 2ws and some are 4ws.



this picture is from here http://www.pgmfi.org/twiki/bin/view/Library/P13 and thats the reason for my doubts about using any p13 ecu for 4ws prelude in despite of that I didnot found any connection between engine ecu and 4ws ecu in wiring diagrams.
So if there is some difference between 4ws and 2ws p13 engune ecu I was unable to find it...

prelittlelude

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PreludeZ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


So if there is some difference between 4ws and 2ws p13 engune ecu I was unable to find it... </TD></TR></TABLE>

well i ask one thing of you, post back with results so people will know,

purestreetracer

somebody was askin a lot earlier about posting a 22 dyno comparison to a 23/vtec dyno..heres my 22 dyno..im currently going 23/vtec which is almost done..will list that dyno too and mod list. had 204.9hp with 160.5 torque ..rounded to 205/161


mod list at time: when this dyno was done i had:stock head/block,type s std. pistons 11.0comp,weapon r intake,kamikaze 4-1 header 2 1/2 inch downpipe.no caty,balancer shaft belt, and butterflies in stock IM.,B $ M adj. fuel reg.,apex vtec cont.,p28 skunk program,unorthodox pulley,cluthmasters flywheel,stage3 clutch,nology wires,ngk spark plugs,msd 6al/coil,nurspec exhaust, 2 1/2 inch piping., on 91 octane with a mix of 100 octane. maybe 50/50 mix. tuning was done by sinister motorsports owner JUSTIN


Modified by purestreetracer at 5:00 PM 3/24/2006

IAluder95

iTrader: (1)

what has to be done to the H23a1 in order for me to run a 98 H22a4 crank in it?

PreludeZ

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by prelittlelude &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
well i ask one thing of you, post back with results so people will know,</TD></TR></TABLE>

In attached wiring diagram of 4WS ecu, there is no connection to the engine ECU, except wire through SCS (service check connector). 4WS ecu has wiring connections only to +/-, VSS, angle sensors, actuator, SCS and ABS ecu.
Also I found on PGMFI forum (www.pgmfi.org) 2 guys using on 4WS prelude P13 ecu labeled 2ws (Icelord and prelude-driver) and they confirmed that there were no problem and that 4WS works correctly...

LudeyKrus

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IAluder95 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what has to be done to the H23a1 in order for me to run a 98 H22a4 crank in it?

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Line-bore the main journals out to 55mm.

IAluder95

iTrader: (1)

does the h22 Girdle fit without maching it?

LudeyKrus

I don't quite understand what you're asking....

If you want to know if you can use the smaller block and the larger-main main caps and girdle, then no. The bottom half of where the crank sits is casted in as part of the block. You would need to have the block saddle portion machined out to 55mm regardless, saving no effort.

If you mean can you swap in a same-size main caps and girdle, then....technically no. People on here have done it before w/o any repercussions, but it is very bad practice as the tolerances leaves open the chance of one side being significantly differently-sized from the other half, making for an uneven surface and possibly a trashed crank.

IAluder95

iTrader: (1)

ok, what i want to do is swap a H22a4 crank and girdle onto my H23.

what exaclt has to be done or can it be done?

LudeyKrus

Line bore the block/main caps out to 55mm.

IAluder95

iTrader: (1)

this is what i was told on PO.com

is this accurate?I don't see the advantage in doing something such as this unless you're going to be making very high HP numbers. In a nutshell, the machine shop would need to bore the main saddles and caps close to the finish diameter, then line hone the block. To do this right, you need to have the major parts bolted to the engine (head, main caps, girdle, etc) with the same fasteners that you plan to use. i.e. don't do a line hone with stock main bolts torqued to the stock spec, then install ARP main studs that are torqued to a much higher spec, you'll warp the main bore.

Also, in addition to the boring and honing, the machine shop will need to machine notches for the tangs in the bearings. Ideally, you'll need to get your hands on a 55mm main block and measure the main bore diameter. This might be in the Helms manual, but I'm not 100% sure. You won't be able to determine the diameter from the bearings.

Seems to me a more effective solution would be to either get the correct crank for the block, or get the correct block for the crank!

Also, in the meantime, make sure you store the crank correctly, or it WILL warp. Have the machine shop check it for runout prior to installation. I have one that I thought was good, but it turns out it has 15 tens of runout.


if so anyone want to trade cranks?

LudeyKrus

That sounds about right. Keep in mind you also have the thrust washers on the sides of the center saddles to make reliefs for.....

Because of the work necessary to make the crank fit, this is why most people simply start with the correct block from the start: it's simply not worth the work.

IAluder95

iTrader: (1)

i just got the crank for hella cheap. now im not sure if its 97 or 98+. if its 97 itll work directly right?

prelittlelude

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IAluder95 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">this is what i was told on PO.com

is this accurate?I don't see the advantage in doing something such as this unless you're going to be making very high HP numbers. In a nutshell, the machine shop would need to bore the main saddles and caps close to the finish diameter, then line hone the block. To do this right, you need to have the major parts bolted to the engine (head, main caps, girdle, etc) with the same fasteners that you plan to use. i.e. don't do a line hone with stock main bolts torqued to the stock spec, then install ARP main studs that are torqued to a much higher spec, you'll warp the main bore.

Also, in addition to the boring and honing, the machine shop will need to machine notches for the tangs in the bearings. Ideally, you'll need to get your hands on a 55mm main block and measure the main bore diameter. This might be in the Helms manual, but I'm not 100% sure. You won't be able to determine the diameter from the bearings.

Seems to me a more effective solution would be to either get the correct crank for the block, or get the correct block for the crank!

Also, in the meantime, make sure you store the crank correctly, or it WILL warp. Have the machine shop check it for runout prior to installation. I have one that I thought was good, but it turns out it has 15 tens of runout.


if so anyone want to trade cranks?

</TD></TR></TABLE>

if you go to a reputable machine shop they will know exactly what to do. its as simple as that.

flyrod

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IAluder95 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i just got the crank for hella cheap. now im not sure if its 97 or 98+. if its 97 itll work directly right?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, measure it. If it's too big then you either need to make the crank smaller or the block bigger. Make sense?

blueBB4lude

some one near the top of this page mentioned tuning, and that is something i have been looking into also. I was going to use a system such as crome or Uberdata. but i cannot find a basemap for an h23vtec. im also not sure if i should start with an h22 map then or an h23. any suggestions?

therealPROJEKTEG

start with an h22 map since an h23 map won't have vtec maps tuned at all, or even enabled. lo cam maps will probably be VERY close if you have a good h22 tune, just high cam will need a little more fuel than a regular h22.

del_parker

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LudeyKrus &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I have yet to actually see someone make them fit without machining the block. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Does anyone know what exactly needs to be done to get oil squirters to fit into the H23 block?

I have my complete H23a1 and a complete H22a4 (minus the intake manifold), but the H22a4 block and crank appear to be bad. What would need to be done to fix a block where the crank thrusted laterally and hit the side of the caps?

purestreetracer

ive read pretty much thru this whole thread which is a lot..but im having trouble understanding why you need oil squirter...and i know someone mentioned about 23 blocks are only ment to redline to 6500 and thats why you need em???? hmm maybe they only redline at 6500 cuz they make no power past that being that stock they have no vtec. the only purpose for the oil squirters is to hellp the pistons resist against pinging/pre detonation..but if tuned good you should be okay. IF you do 23/vtec and dont use oil squirters and no jet make sure you plug the area up where the squirters get the oil supply from on the girdle. other wise i believe your engine will loose oil pressure. i think the best way to figure out where your redline is..is on the dyno. i mean vtec b series come with oil squirters too and a shop owner i know builds all of his b series motors w/o oil squirters and they never see trouble????at high revs too, and and arent the frm sleeves supposed to anticipate heat better than the b series stock sleeves?? so you would think you would be alright without them right? im guessin as long as your tuned right your motor should be cool..and rev to where your dyno shows you stop droppin HP at. well i will find out when mine is complete and i will let ya guys know...i know a longer rod would allow for higher revs so the shorter rod on that 23 crank is gonna drop my peak hp down a little. wow ..my dyno was 205whp and 161 torque...with stock internals and bolt ons...check this dyno out on another thread on here https://honda-tech.com/zerothread/1625652


Modified by purestreetracer at 7:08 PM 4/28/2006


Modified by purestreetracer at 9:20 PM 5/14/2006

meanshyguy

Does anybody have an H22 broken motor or good head for sale, I'm building an H23vtec, plus, if I use type s pistons, can I still shave the head .20? what are the best headers to use? I heard RMF are pretty good, anyone whith answers email me at meanshyguy2003@yahoo.com, thanks