H22 Removing Intake Manifold Butterflies
11-04-2004, 06:42 PM
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Re: (WillsH22Accord)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by WillsH22Accord »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">either way, i see it as too much air. </TD></TR></TABLE>
What do you mean too much air???
Air flow is directly proportional to power. I'm not sure my H22 will ever breath too much air.
What do you mean too much air???
Air flow is directly proportional to power. I'm not sure my H22 will ever breath too much air.
11-04-2004, 06:43 PM
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Re: (satan_srv)
The only time i reccomend removing them is if your sensor isnt opening them like mine was doing. After i figured out they wernt opening i made it so they were always open and made like .5 seconds off my 1/4 time. When i made them open i immediatly noticed my rpms reving much faster in the higher rpms. So why would you wanna close them up like mine used to be like? I glad i dont even have to worry about butterflies now with my new manifold. 
11-04-2004, 11:50 PM
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Re: (SuperSlow)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SuperSlow »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You are running S2 mani now?</TD></TR></TABLE>
yep
yep
11-04-2004, 11:54 PM
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Re: (WillsH22Accord)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by WillsH22Accord »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">either way, i see it as too much air. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Dude your so hard headed.
Dude your so hard headed.
11-05-2004, 05:56 AM
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yeah i know 
but my question is, if you lose power by removing the butterflies in the stock manifold, how are you gaining power with an open manifold like the s2? Is it because when the iabs are removed, the airflow is disrupted? Reason I say too much air is because i have the s2 and im pretty convinced that my a/f ratio is pretty screwed up right now.
but my question is, if you lose power by removing the butterflies in the stock manifold, how are you gaining power with an open manifold like the s2? Is it because when the iabs are removed, the airflow is disrupted? Reason I say too much air is because i have the s2 and im pretty convinced that my a/f ratio is pretty screwed up right now.
11-05-2004, 08:05 AM
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Re: (WillsH22Accord)
Actually guys, I think I may have to do this. My P06 has no knowledge of the secondaries, so are my larger set not opening up in the top end? My upper end AFR was **** rich off the basemap, but I figured this was normal. If the secondaries are getting no signal, are the larger ones remaining closed? I totally forgot about them.
11-07-2004, 10:20 PM
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Re: (Freemantle)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Freemantle »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Actually guys, I think I may have to do this. My P06 has no knowledge of the secondaries, so are my larger set not opening up in the top end? My upper end AFR was **** rich off the basemap, but I figured this was normal. If the secondaries are getting no signal, are the larger ones remaining closed? I totally forgot about them. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Easiest way to test it w/o taking anything apart is to pull the vacuum hose off of the IAB valve and plug the hose end with a screw. See if your a/f changes, it should.
Easiest way to test it w/o taking anything apart is to pull the vacuum hose off of the IAB valve and plug the hose end with a screw. See if your a/f changes, it should.
11-07-2004, 10:54 PM
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Re: H22 Removing Intake Manifold Butterflies (satan_srv)
Well, since Im done with the testing on stock intake manifolds I might as well let you guys in on a few things...
First off, this...
Isnt going to help much at all...
The best way to get the stock manifold to work well with a mild to built NA or even FI set up is to take the work that is pictured above and go a few steps further...
1. Machine the 4 large divisions completely out of the bottom of the plenum...
This will take about 3 inches off the total runner length and creat a lot more plenum volume which works well for most built NA and FI motors...
2. Open the new runner entry point up as much as material will allow while still maintaining structual integrity...
Your going to want to taper the runner down from your new runner entry all the way down to a SLIGHTLY larger than stock flange port... Make sure the port on the flange is a bit smaller than the intake port on the head...
Make sense?
BUT...
Id only recomend doing this if you have the means of fabricating a new IM top/cap... using the stock piece will creat a bit too much plenum volume and a very akward plenum shape...
I started this with the intent of mounting 2 upward pointed D series throttle bodies fitted to a custom billet plate that bolts directly to the stock bottom half of the IM...
First off, this...
Isnt going to help much at all...
The best way to get the stock manifold to work well with a mild to built NA or even FI set up is to take the work that is pictured above and go a few steps further...
1. Machine the 4 large divisions completely out of the bottom of the plenum...
This will take about 3 inches off the total runner length and creat a lot more plenum volume which works well for most built NA and FI motors...
2. Open the new runner entry point up as much as material will allow while still maintaining structual integrity...
Your going to want to taper the runner down from your new runner entry all the way down to a SLIGHTLY larger than stock flange port... Make sure the port on the flange is a bit smaller than the intake port on the head...
Make sense?
BUT...
Id only recomend doing this if you have the means of fabricating a new IM top/cap... using the stock piece will creat a bit too much plenum volume and a very akward plenum shape...
I started this with the intent of mounting 2 upward pointed D series throttle bodies fitted to a custom billet plate that bolts directly to the stock bottom half of the IM...
11-08-2004, 01:39 AM
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Re: H22 Removing Intake Manifold Butterflies (mgags7)
hmm i thought removing 2nd butterflie set will only decrease low end toque...and honda actually admit that keeping 2nd butterflies set help to increase low end tq, if you remove it...it effects low end negavtively and high end is the same ...i saw some graph you actually loss power at where 2nd butterflies open if you remove it...
11-08-2004, 02:23 AM
#37
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Re: H22 Removing Intake Manifold Butterflies (RS2)
[QUOTE=RS2]Well, since Im done with the testing on stock intake manifolds I might as well let you guys in on a few things...
First off, this...
Isnt going to help much at all...QUOTE]
I agree, just joining them together does not make more power, as that's what Blake did. It's just too much air with the plenum and not a smooth enough transition
First off, this...
Isnt going to help much at all...QUOTE]
I agree, just joining them together does not make more power, as that's what Blake did. It's just too much air with the plenum and not a smooth enough transition
11-15-2004, 10:19 PM
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Re: H22 Removing Intake Manifold Butterflies (satan_srv)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by satan_srv »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">[QUOTE=RS2]Well, since Im done with the testing on stock intake manifolds I might as well let you guys in on a few things...
First off, this...
Isnt going to help much at all...QUOTE]
I agree, just joining them together does not make more power, as that's what Blake did. It's just too much air with the plenum and not a smooth enough transition</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thanks for the comments. Well we've done several dyno tests with a stock manfold and with the one you pictured on an all motor JDM H22a with Sk2 stage 2 cams, full valve train, decked head. Static compression ratio 11.1:1 Hondata tuned. It definitely made power on just the manifold swap.
You probably won't see much gains with stock cams that aren't designed for the upper rpm range. Anyone who has aftermarket cams should give this a try. I'll give one out for FREE as long as I get a core in return and the person agrees to do a before and after dyno.
email me: jei@blacktrax.net
First off, this...
Isnt going to help much at all...QUOTE]
I agree, just joining them together does not make more power, as that's what Blake did. It's just too much air with the plenum and not a smooth enough transition</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thanks for the comments. Well we've done several dyno tests with a stock manfold and with the one you pictured on an all motor JDM H22a with Sk2 stage 2 cams, full valve train, decked head. Static compression ratio 11.1:1 Hondata tuned. It definitely made power on just the manifold swap.
You probably won't see much gains with stock cams that aren't designed for the upper rpm range. Anyone who has aftermarket cams should give this a try. I'll give one out for FREE as long as I get a core in return and the person agrees to do a before and after dyno.
email me: jei@blacktrax.net
11-15-2004, 10:45 PM
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Re: H22 Removing Intake Manifold Butterflies (BlackTraxH23)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BlackTraxH23 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Thanks for the comments. Well we've done several dyno tests with a stock manfold and with the one you pictured on an all motor JDM H22a with Sk2 stage 2 cams, full valve train, decked head. Static compression ratio 11.1:1 Hondata tuned. It definitely made power on just the manifold swap.
You probably won't see much gains with stock cams that aren't designed for the upper rpm range. Anyone who has aftermarket cams should give this a try. I'll give one out for FREE as long as I get a core in return and the person agrees to do a before and after dyno.
email me: jei@blacktrax.net
</TD></TR></TABLE>
The only place you will ever see gains with the manifold pictured above is way up top and even then its minimal... The reason for gains up top is simply because you are increasing the plenum volume slightly and shortening the runners a bit... The downside, as I stated in my previous post in this thread (Im RS2) is the fact that you are creating divisional walls in the plenum itself which does nothing more than create turbulance and confuse flow. For best results machine the divisions completey out of the plenum and create a new plate with TB inlet for the top of the plenum/IM. Youll be shortening the runners by about 3 inches so your going to want to port the runner entries as far out as the casting will allow and taper them back down to the stock flange port size...
I think I may have explained it in a previous post of mine in this thread but just in case I didint, I figured Id cover it again.
Thanks for the comments. Well we've done several dyno tests with a stock manfold and with the one you pictured on an all motor JDM H22a with Sk2 stage 2 cams, full valve train, decked head. Static compression ratio 11.1:1 Hondata tuned. It definitely made power on just the manifold swap.
You probably won't see much gains with stock cams that aren't designed for the upper rpm range. Anyone who has aftermarket cams should give this a try. I'll give one out for FREE as long as I get a core in return and the person agrees to do a before and after dyno.
email me: jei@blacktrax.net
</TD></TR></TABLE>
The only place you will ever see gains with the manifold pictured above is way up top and even then its minimal... The reason for gains up top is simply because you are increasing the plenum volume slightly and shortening the runners a bit... The downside, as I stated in my previous post in this thread (Im RS2) is the fact that you are creating divisional walls in the plenum itself which does nothing more than create turbulance and confuse flow. For best results machine the divisions completey out of the plenum and create a new plate with TB inlet for the top of the plenum/IM. Youll be shortening the runners by about 3 inches so your going to want to port the runner entries as far out as the casting will allow and taper them back down to the stock flange port size...
I think I may have explained it in a previous post of mine in this thread but just in case I didint, I figured Id cover it again.
11-15-2004, 11:04 PM
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Re: H22 Removing Intake Manifold Butterflies (Rick Solis)
Thanks RS. I definitely see and understand your point. What we're trying to do is retain the factory style/look of the manifold so that it can pass a visual inspection by CA smog techs and police. The dyno plot we got, shows substantial gains on the top end and that is where we needed it for our particular drag car application. It had two internally gutted IAB spacers stacked to further increase volume. The picture above was one of four designs. On the other manifold, we further milled it as close to the end as possible without punching a hole much like you're explanation. This will also be tested on the dyno shortly.
11-16-2004, 04:52 AM
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Do you think it is better to leave the IABs or just remove them on a <U>turboed</U> h22? I figure you probably wouldn't see that much low-end torque loss but i don't know if it will make that much of a difference in the top end really...
11-16-2004, 08:36 PM
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Re: H22 Removing Intake Manifold Butterflies (BlackTraxH23)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BlackTraxH23 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Thanks RS. I definitely see and understand your point. What we're trying to do is retain the factory style/look of the manifold so that it can pass a visual inspection by CA smog techs and police. The dyno plot we got, shows substantial gains on the top end and that is where we needed it for our particular drag car application. It had two internally gutted IAB spacers stacked to further increase volume. The picture above was one of four designs. On the other manifold, we further milled it as close to the end as possible without punching a hole much like you're explanation. This will also be tested on the dyno shortly.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm on the same page as you. I've been deliberating for some time about doing this modification, I have a core, and going with the Euro-R (Skunk 2 doesn't count because I'm in So-Cal). I have the Crower Stage-2 cams in my 2001 SS, and I think the manifold could use some attention. Do you have a dyno to post for your modified plenum? I would like to know if the gains are in a useable range for a well modified and tuned daily driver. DH-Racing has a similar manifold, but the dyno plot I saw from them shows gains only above 7000rpm.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm on the same page as you. I've been deliberating for some time about doing this modification, I have a core, and going with the Euro-R (Skunk 2 doesn't count because I'm in So-Cal). I have the Crower Stage-2 cams in my 2001 SS, and I think the manifold could use some attention. Do you have a dyno to post for your modified plenum? I would like to know if the gains are in a useable range for a well modified and tuned daily driver. DH-Racing has a similar manifold, but the dyno plot I saw from them shows gains only above 7000rpm.
11-16-2004, 08:41 PM
#43
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Re: H22 Removing Intake Manifold Butterflies (MC_HondaRacing)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MC_HondaRacing »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I'm on the same page as you. I've been deliberating for some time about doing this modification, I have a core, and going with the Euro-R (Skunk 2 doesn't count because I'm in So-Cal). I have the Crower Stage-2 cams in my 2001 SS, and I think the manifold could use some attention. Do you have a dyno to post for your modified plenum? I would like to know if the gains are in a useable range for a well modified and tuned daily driver. DH-Racing has a similar manifold, but the dyno plot I saw from them shows gains only above 7000rpm.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I think you would see much worse results on an SS prelude...throttle response would be very bad...SS ludes already have a smaller TB diameter for this reason.
I'm on the same page as you. I've been deliberating for some time about doing this modification, I have a core, and going with the Euro-R (Skunk 2 doesn't count because I'm in So-Cal). I have the Crower Stage-2 cams in my 2001 SS, and I think the manifold could use some attention. Do you have a dyno to post for your modified plenum? I would like to know if the gains are in a useable range for a well modified and tuned daily driver. DH-Racing has a similar manifold, but the dyno plot I saw from them shows gains only above 7000rpm.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I think you would see much worse results on an SS prelude...throttle response would be very bad...SS ludes already have a smaller TB diameter for this reason.
11-17-2004, 04:46 AM
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Re: Re: (Sam1am26)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Sam1am26 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Do you think it is better to leave the IABs or just remove them on a <U>turboed</U> h22? I figure you probably wouldn't see that much low-end torque loss but i don't know if it will make that much of a difference in the top end really...</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm doing this mod as well, but i have a turbocharged H22a, going to push 22psi. But from what i'm reading everybody's sceptical about this mod. How about some oppinions on Turbocharged H22's with this mod???
I'm doing this mod as well, but i have a turbocharged H22a, going to push 22psi. But from what i'm reading everybody's sceptical about this mod. How about some oppinions on Turbocharged H22's with this mod???
11-17-2004, 08:01 PM
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Re: H22 Removing Intake Manifold Butterflies (satan_srv)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by satan_srv »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I think you would see much worse results on an SS prelude...throttle response would be very bad...SS ludes already have a smaller TB diameter for this reason.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'll have to check on the throttle body diameter..... This is the first I've heard of the SS cars having a different throttle body.
I don't think the transmission has anything to do with throttle response. Throttle response is purely engine related, I'm sure you're aware. Automatics usually feel more sluggish than manuals, but that has nothing to do with the engine, just with how the driveline responds to changes in power delivery. Automatics are loaded with much more rotational inertia in the torque converter, and if you are not shifting manually, they will be slow to downshift on a transition from cruise to accel. This is purely an issue with the transmission, and has nothing to do with the engine.
If a modification will make more power, then the car will go faster, regardless of the driveline layout. I think your concern is that if this modification results in a tradeoff of low speed power for high speed power, then the car will not accelerate through the entire speed range as well. However, a manual car will suffer the same fate. When I'm accelerating in the SS, a WOT shift at redline keeps the engine speed above 5000rpm. So aside from a loss in performance in first gear, assuming a standing start, the car will go faster with more top end power.
You seem to speak from a wealth of experience with automatic Preludes. What do you think, and please share your experiences.
I think you would see much worse results on an SS prelude...throttle response would be very bad...SS ludes already have a smaller TB diameter for this reason.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'll have to check on the throttle body diameter..... This is the first I've heard of the SS cars having a different throttle body.
I don't think the transmission has anything to do with throttle response. Throttle response is purely engine related, I'm sure you're aware. Automatics usually feel more sluggish than manuals, but that has nothing to do with the engine, just with how the driveline responds to changes in power delivery. Automatics are loaded with much more rotational inertia in the torque converter, and if you are not shifting manually, they will be slow to downshift on a transition from cruise to accel. This is purely an issue with the transmission, and has nothing to do with the engine.
If a modification will make more power, then the car will go faster, regardless of the driveline layout. I think your concern is that if this modification results in a tradeoff of low speed power for high speed power, then the car will not accelerate through the entire speed range as well. However, a manual car will suffer the same fate. When I'm accelerating in the SS, a WOT shift at redline keeps the engine speed above 5000rpm. So aside from a loss in performance in first gear, assuming a standing start, the car will go faster with more top end power.
You seem to speak from a wealth of experience with automatic Preludes. What do you think, and please share your experiences.
11-22-2004, 12:51 PM
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Re: H22 Removing Intake Manifold Butterflies (RS2)
Is there anyway to draw or show what your talking about. I'm in the process of modding my stock H22a intake as well, but i'm trying to figure out what you are trying to explain so i can see what my options are.
I wanna run 20 pounds of boost trough this thing. If it's a waste of time and if there;s no gain by doing this mod i need to know.
Greetz
I wanna run 20 pounds of boost trough this thing. If it's a waste of time and if there;s no gain by doing this mod i need to know.
Greetz
11-22-2004, 12:52 PM
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Re: H22 Removing Intake Manifold Butterflies (RS2)
Is there anyway to draw or show what your talking about. I'm in the process of modding my stock H22a intake as well, but i'm trying to figure out what you are trying to explain so i can see what my options are.
I wanna run 20 pounds of boost trough this thing. If it's a waste of time and if there;s no gain by doing this mod i need to know.
Greetz <TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RS2 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well, since Im done with the testing on stock intake manifolds I might as well let you guys in on a few things...
First off, this...
Isnt going to help much at all...
The best way to get the stock manifold to work well with a mild to built NA or even FI set up is to take the work that is pictured above and go a few steps further...
1. Machine the 4 large divisions completely out of the bottom of the plenum...
This will take about 3 inches off the total runner length and creat a lot more plenum volume which works well for most built NA and FI motors...
2. Open the new runner entry point up as much as material will allow while still maintaining structual integrity...
Your going to want to taper the runner down from your new runner entry all the way down to a SLIGHTLY larger than stock flange port... Make sure the port on the flange is a bit smaller than the intake port on the head...
Make sense?
BUT...
Id only recomend doing this if you have the means of fabricating a new IM top/cap... using the stock piece will creat a bit too much plenum volume and a very akward plenum shape...
I started this with the intent of mounting 2 upward pointed D series throttle bodies fitted to a custom billet plate that bolts directly to the stock bottom half of the IM...</TD></TR></TABLE>
I wanna run 20 pounds of boost trough this thing. If it's a waste of time and if there;s no gain by doing this mod i need to know.
Greetz <TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RS2 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well, since Im done with the testing on stock intake manifolds I might as well let you guys in on a few things...
First off, this...
Isnt going to help much at all...
The best way to get the stock manifold to work well with a mild to built NA or even FI set up is to take the work that is pictured above and go a few steps further...
1. Machine the 4 large divisions completely out of the bottom of the plenum...
This will take about 3 inches off the total runner length and creat a lot more plenum volume which works well for most built NA and FI motors...
2. Open the new runner entry point up as much as material will allow while still maintaining structual integrity...
Your going to want to taper the runner down from your new runner entry all the way down to a SLIGHTLY larger than stock flange port... Make sure the port on the flange is a bit smaller than the intake port on the head...
Make sense?
BUT...
Id only recomend doing this if you have the means of fabricating a new IM top/cap... using the stock piece will creat a bit too much plenum volume and a very akward plenum shape...
I started this with the intent of mounting 2 upward pointed D series throttle bodies fitted to a custom billet plate that bolts directly to the stock bottom half of the IM...</TD></TR></TABLE>
11-22-2004, 04:49 PM
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Re: (ludegetsmwet)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ludegetsmwet »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the skunk 2 intake manifold kicks ***. massive air flow. way better than any possible modification you could do to the stock intake manifold and removing intake air bypass butterflies.</TD></TR></TABLE>
i agree. just buy the skunk2. why risk ruining your motor? these aren't $2k civics you know. preludes are damn near luxury sports cars.
i agree. just buy the skunk2. why risk ruining your motor? these aren't $2k civics you know. preludes are damn near luxury sports cars.
11-22-2004, 05:31 PM
#49
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Thread Starter
first off, the butterflies that the iab controls are the upper rpm ones, therefore they flow better than the lower rpm ones....
it has been proven on a dyno that closing off the lower rpm ones and just leaving the upper ones does better all over the powerband, it accomodates for:
1)the higher amount of air we need at <4500 rpm b/c of our upgrades
2)better flow velocity at upper rpm due to a better air path and circular ports opposed to ovular, and the old setup was way too big with both open, if anything, honda should have opened these up and closed to small ones at high rpm....
it has been proven on a dyno that closing off the lower rpm ones and just leaving the upper ones does better all over the powerband, it accomodates for:
1)the higher amount of air we need at <4500 rpm b/c of our upgrades
2)better flow velocity at upper rpm due to a better air path and circular ports opposed to ovular, and the old setup was way too big with both open, if anything, honda should have opened these up and closed to small ones at high rpm....
11-22-2004, 09:39 PM
#50
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Re: (mgags7)
So does any one have a pic of the inside of a Euro-R mani. Why are these so much better?? Also it seems that Honda chose not to go with butterflies in their street racing applications.(Read Type R) It seems they feel the butterflies will not do any good in their type R motors. Since those are essentialy what we are emulating then it would seem to make sense to do away with our butterflies as well,correct??