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5th Gens - Base vs. SH

 
Old 02-09-2004, 04:05 PM
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Default 5th Gens - Base vs. SH

Got a question reguarding the 5th gen Base vs. SH model?

Find the answer in here. Feel free to add more information and please do not random comments that have nothing to do with technical merit.

Do not post up mis-information. If questioned about your information, you should be able to back it up with proof. This will help to cause less confusion.
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Old 02-10-2004, 04:38 PM
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Default 5th Gens - Base vs. SH

well i searched "difference between base and sh" in post bodies under archived content. Just an hours worth of cut and paste action. if there are any discrepancies or contradictions , sorry. if you see any post it up and i'll edit it.


Originally Posted by honda-tech members
both the base model and the SH have about 200hp to the flywheel. Although when dyno'd and powered measured to the wheels the base model puts out a couple of more horses because the SH looses a bit more power due to the ATTS system robbing some ponies.


The SH prelude ATTS problem with high horsepower is that it shuts off in the range of 220-250 horsepower and becomes useless. The base and the SH have the same engine albeit the SH block is a little different with the oil filter being in a different location than the base prelude to accomodate ATTS.


if you want a drag car, get the base.

if you want a car for auto-xing, track, road courses...etc, get the SH.

you'll find parts easier for the base, for the SH you'll have to hunt.

if you want to go turbo with an SH, you can always disconnect the ATTS unit.

LSD not compatible with ATTS.

ATTS: Active Torque Transfer System.
It basically sends more power to the outside wheel when cornering making it spin 15% faster than the inside wheel.


both base and SH models are identical when it comes to the engines power at the flywheel. The SH has some accessories that the base model does not have such as a leather shift ****, spoiler, different rims, and some others

front suspension is different on the SH (biggest thing people dont realize). the geometry is different (specially designed to reduce torque steer) and the exhaust routing is slightly different to accomodate the ATTS.

The SH has a different block, it's a fact. That's why the SH and Base trannies is not a bolt on swap. Internally they are the same, but the block design on the outside is differnt. Intermediate shaft and tranny mounting, oil filter and a bunch of other stuff.

There is a thread on PO.com that details how to do a SH tranny swap to a base, it's not easy and involves fabrication.


The swap to a base tranny is NOT DIFFICULT. Trust me, I've done it...they are my pictures on preludeonline. The _only_ difference is the SH block has mounting points for the ATTS unit instead of an intermediate shaft. The modification to bolt an intermediate shaft up only takes a little bit of work to the bearing carrier of the shaft as well as the fabrication of an adapter plate (which is simply a drilled piece of 1/4" plate). You can retain your SH axles and nothing else changes...you only need a base tranny and intermediate shaft. My pics are here:

http://ian.clendaniel.net/gallery/noatts

Yeah, the front suspension difference shouldn't be a deterrant - it's really not a big deal. Just replace the springs & shocks together.
There is a small difference in the exhaust manifold - the SH collector ends a few inches farther downstream than the base.

The oil filter is in a different location on the block, but all that means is if you get a JRSC kit, it needs to be relocated.

All the other issues all revolve around the ATTS system. Like has been mentioned already, in high powered applications (turbo, supercharger, or extreme n/a), it will have trouble handling the power. If you just want nitrous, you might be alright since you're not spraying all the time. And you're not likely to spray around too many corners where the ATTS would actually be operating.

You also won't be able to install a limited slip differential at the same time as the ATTS - if you decide you want one, a tranny swap & mild custom fabbing will be in order. And if you decide to go to a stand-alone management system like Hondata or AEM, you'll lose the ATTS functions.

And then there's those few extra pounds up front. **shrug**

All of that said, there are definitely advantages to the SH model - little things like the courtesy lights on the doors, leather wrapped shift ****, the spoiler & brakelight-less rear deck, stuff like that is nice. And of course, within it's boundaries, the ATTS works very well at getting rid of understeer. It's extremely fun on highway on-ramps . . .

-SH does not have more power. auto preludes (5G) all have 190hp, Manuals have 195hp (1997, 1998) and 200hp (1999-2001). SH come ONLY in manual

-the difference in hp was never quite accounted for, some say the 97-98 were underrated, some say it was just ecu tuning, either way it's not a big difference

-SH and base lude differ mainly because the SH has ATTS, which essentially makes the front wheels turn like a tank when you turn hard (more torque to the outside wheel)

-other than that, the suspension differs in that the upper and lower control arm designs were changed to reduce torque steer. it is slightly stiffer too.

There are actually quite a few differences between the base and the Type SH suspension, The springs are not the same. The type SH springs are a little taller. The struts are different as well, the base where the spring is perched sits lower on the Type SH, hence the taller spring. It results in a little firmer spring rate than the base. Lets not forget to mention the front knuckles are different, the raius rods, the front trailing arms, and the roll bars are a couple of millimeters thicker than the base front and rear. In the rear the springs and struts are different on the SH, it has the same condition as the front where the perch that the spring sits on is slightly lower than the base model, and the spring is slightly taller than the base model, It is not as big of a difference between the SH and Base rears as the fronts are though, the rear trailing arms are a little thicker as well but not much. The only problems with aftermarket struts would be modifying the dust gaurds on the struts with stock springs, however if you go aftermarket springs and struts that are replaced in tandem you will not run into any issues..


Here is a brief synapse of what ATTS is and what it does. under straight line acceleration the system operates like an open diff meaning that only one wheel will spin on a slick surface (eg.. like ice), also at the track it only spin one tire just like an open diff. There for ATTS is not an lsd. ATTS is located on the left axle, it is essentailly a smaller tranmission, it hydraulically activates gears in the unit to route the power.When you are traveling at speed and you corner there are senors measuring the cornering force, speed, and throttle input and can send as much as 80% torque to the outside wheel when cornering. There is a standalone unit that controls the ATTS unit itself, it is also connected to the ECU. So if there is any imminent danger to the ATTS it will tell the ECU to cut power.

Honda redesigned its sport coupe for 1997. Again front-wheel drive with a 4-cylinder engine, Prelude rode a 1.4-inch longer wheelbase than before, and measured 3.2 inches longer overall. Curb weight rose by 145 pounds. Interior dimensions changed only slightly, but trunk space expanded by nearly one cubic foot. Basic 2-door notchback styling continued from the 1992-96 generation, but traditional analog gauges replaced vacuum-fluorescent instruments. Only base and SH editions went on sale, each equipped with a 2.2-liter 4-cylinder that employed Honda's variable-valve-timing technology. Running on premium fuel, the engine developed 195 horsepower with 5-speed manual shift, but only 190 horses when equipped with an automatic transmission. Offered only on base Preludes, the automatic transmission gained a new manual-shift feature, called Sequential SportShift. The gear selector lever could be left in Drive for regular automatic shifting, or tipped forward or backward to permit manual gear selection.The SH model went on sale first, equipped with a new Honda-developed system designed to combat the tendency of front-drive cars to plow, or understeer, when accelerating through a turn. Called the Active Torque Transfer System, it automatically distributed more of the engine's power to outside front wheels when accelerating in a turn. That forced the outside front wheel to rotate up to 15 percent faster than the inside front wheel. The system could direct up to 80 percent of engine torque to a single wheel. Dual airbags and four-wheel disc brakes were standard on both models, incorporating antilocking. Each model rode 16-inch tires.
Year-to-Year Changes

1998: New paint colors were the only change for 1998.

1999: More new colors became available, but only one interior hue: black. The Prelude's engine gained 5 horsepower, and did not require a tune-up until 100,00 miles. Remote locking now was a standard feature.

2000: Preludes entered the 2000 model year without change.

2001: Standard floormats, rear child-seat tethers, an emergency trunk release were the main changes for 2001. Prelude would not continue for 2002.

Modified by Behan at 11:35 PM 2/10/2004
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Old 02-10-2004, 06:42 PM
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"you CAN mod the suspension on a SH, just don't slam it or you'll get the ATTS light.

i dont agree with that
that is false

if you get a ATTS light after you drop your car, theres something else wrong
theres plenty of SH owners dropped and dont have the ATTS light on

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Old 02-12-2004, 12:35 PM
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Default Re: (Behan)

Nice work. Good job
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Old 02-12-2004, 02:22 PM
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Default Re: (98silprelude)

Very good information. If anyone else has any information that should be included, please post the information in this thread.

Thanks guys.
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Old 02-20-2004, 05:11 AM
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Default Re: **SPECIAL REQUEST FROM MEMBERS** (PrecisionH23a)

cams are different to make up for lost power from ATTS.

rear and side skirts painted body color.


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Old 02-21-2004, 02:19 PM
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Default Re: **SPECIAL REQUEST FROM MEMBERS** (naujcdl)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by naujcdl &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">97 were 5 lug rims, 98 and up are 4 lug rims, correct me if i am wrong on the later years past 99.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Correction noted: ALL 5th generation Preludes are 5 lugs. SH wheels are different.
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Old 02-22-2004, 01:59 PM
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Default Re: **SPECIAL REQUEST FROM MEMBERS** (RAB)

Awsome response man.
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Old 02-22-2004, 02:01 PM
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Default Re: **SPECIAL REQUEST FROM MEMBERS** (porkchop)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by porkchop &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">cams are different to make up for lost power from ATTS.

rear and side skirts painted body color.


</TD></TR></TABLE>

Why are the cam part numbers for the Base/SH, the same from honda?
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Old 02-22-2004, 03:01 PM
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Default Re: **SPECIAL REQUEST FROM MEMBERS** (Cottonwoodz)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Cottonwoodz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Why are the cam part numbers for the Base/SH, the same from honda?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Agreed, I'm seeing the same part numbers for Base and SH cams.

And if the SH really had nicer cams to make up for lost power why does it still dyno so low?
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Old 03-14-2004, 12:13 AM
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Default Re: **SPECIAL REQUEST FROM MEMBERS** (satan_srv)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by satan_srv &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Agreed, I'm seeing the same part numbers for Base and SH cams.

And if the SH really had nicer cams to make up for lost power why does it still dyno so low?</TD></TR></TABLE>

It's a very very veeeery slight difference (0.4mm on the mid lobes only, intake and exhaust). Look it up in the Helms manual (6-33 - 6-35 or so), it lists the lobe sizes on the camshafts for SH models and Base models.

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Old 03-14-2004, 01:46 AM
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<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kotetu &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

It's a very very veeeery slight difference (0.4mm on the mid lobes only, intake and exhaust). Look it up in the Helms manual (6-33 - 6-35 or so), it lists the lobe sizes on the camshafts for SH models and Base models.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

If it was, the part #'s would be different. Different sizes, different numbers.....
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Old 03-14-2004, 08:17 AM
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Default Re: **SPECIAL REQUEST FROM MEMBERS** (Cottonwoodz)

I'm not arguing the part numbers, just reading what is in the helms. It's specific : Except M/T with ATTS for the first list.
M/T with ATTS for the second list.

Again, the difference is very slight.
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Old 03-15-2004, 10:10 AM
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The ATTS does not shut off at 220-250hp. It never really shuts off. It just has a hard time coping with the extra power. Also when lowering the SH you tend to have more CV boot wear.
The cam lobs do differ some as well. The reason the cams are the same part number is for ease of ordering. They have sub sections to the par number when you are ordering them. I worked in the parts department of a Honda dealer for a few montha an they are different.
As well as the factory service manual points out that they are infact different.
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Old 03-15-2004, 10:12 AM
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Default Re: (Turbo_LudeSH)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Turbo_LudeSH &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The ATTS does not shut off at 220-250hp. It never really shuts off. It just has a hard time coping with the extra power
</TD></TR></TABLE>

DING DING DING!!!!!!! awesome first post man!

around that HP the clutches in the ATTS unit begin slipping.
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Old 03-15-2004, 11:01 AM
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Default Re: (shakes)

the SH also has built in support brace on the back of the front bumper support.
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Old 03-15-2004, 11:10 AM
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Default Re: 5th Gens - Base vs. SH (PrecisionH23a)

after reading that extensive background bout da sh model and the base, I dont feel so rewarded to have an SH model, am i really screwed about putting on some mods to my car, I really would like it to be quicker adding the basics, Intake, exhaust, fuel management, and probably turbo later, so how can i get rid of atts if this is a problem, if it aint, let me kno, so I dont get so discouraged bout having my car. Wuts the point of adding mods if my power will be limited cuz of atts? all help appreciated!
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Old 03-15-2004, 05:57 PM
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Default Re: 5th Gens - Base vs. SH (kriptik)

Type-SH also has a revised front suspension to allow much more caster with the Type-SH suspension over the base suspenion.

Type-SH has slightly harder spring rate compared to the base springs. NOT interchangeable between the two.

Door lights!

Header collector is longer to accomidate ATTS

Exhaust is 2-3" shorter (rough estimate) at the cat connection to accomidate the header differences.

Type-SH rear tray, no 3rd brake light. Spoiler light standard

Type-SH oil filter different location on the block compared to the base.

Base tranny and Type-SH tranny not intechangeable

Type-SH cams (helms spec) slightly more lift.


yada yada yada... There's more but it all has to deal with just ATTS.
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Old 03-15-2004, 07:51 PM
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Default Re: 5th Gens - Base vs. SH (TimeRacer)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TimeRacer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Base tranny and Type-SH tranny not interchangeable

</TD></TR></TABLE>

actually they are, but require some fabrication.
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Old 03-15-2004, 09:38 PM
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Default Re: 5th Gens - Base vs. SH (TimeRacer)

[Base tranny and Type-SH tranny not intechangeable

Type-SH cams (helms spec) slightly more lift.


Did you by any chance read the Second post befor you posted? The tranny's have the same bolt pattern and are interchangeable albeit slight modification. Type Sh cams are the same as the base, hence the same part number. If you were to measure these two cams you will find they are the same. Behan provided wonderful info and so it shold be read befor misinformation runs rampant.
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Old 03-15-2004, 09:51 PM
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Default Re: 5th Gens - Base vs. SH (Gerhard_001)

Never pulled out my cams to measure them against a base spec. As I stated, it is per the Helms manual specification. If you want I'll pull the specs from the manual and post them here. I've heard of one instance that this has been done pulling it out of the engine and they did have a different profile but I don't have the source to back it up at this time. Just to make sure... this is from the Helm's manual not direct source comparing the two. I'd like to see someone compare the two other than just Honda providing one part number instead of both as Honda itself needs to keep manufacturing these pieces for at least.. was it 10 years after it goes out of production as requried by law which is why they can provide only one replacement part number. So please don't accuse me of misinformation when if you popped open the Helms manual you'll see what it states as well.

As per the base tranny to SH block... It's A LOT of work and you have to make your own intermediate shaft as covered on this board. Overall it's actually cheaper to dump your bottom end and get a base block along with a base tranny. If you want to consider that "compatible" then I'll change that.


Modified by TimeRacer at 11:19 PM 3/15/2004
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Old 05-31-2004, 03:03 PM
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Default Re: 5th Gens - Base vs. SH (PrecisionH23a)

ATTS makes the car handle very well for FWD I would never get rid of it. I have fishtaled my Prelude SH once or twice (slightly) but point out that ATTS from my experience eliminates the understeer I have experienced with all other FWD cars. I have also noticed no speed difference between base and SH I have raced two base and four 4th gen Si and the SH took all of them [with the base comming closest at 1/2 car difference at 90 (it was auto though)]. If you want the base model then buy the base model! if you have the SH and want the base transmission sell the SH and buy a base model prelude, preludes still hold good resell value.

Why would you want to drag race a Prelude or for that matter any FWD car?

Stop Drag racing Hondas ! thats just redneck

autocross
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Old 05-31-2004, 09:27 PM
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Default Re: 5th Gens - Base vs. SH (inpsyte)

The overall speed (striaght line) of the 5 gen's should be NO different from SH to Base. If you think about it, the Base should have an overall weight advantage and be slightly faster. Now if you Auto-X, the SH will have an advantage over the Base because of the ATTS.
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Old 05-31-2004, 09:42 PM
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Default Re: 5th Gens - Base vs. SH (PrecisionH23a)

you all forgot the main thing, the blocks are totally different! h22a, h22a4, h22a4 is open deck!
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Old 06-01-2004, 03:10 AM
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Default Re: 5th Gens - Base vs. SH (joeyfmx22)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by joeyfmx22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you all forgot the main thing, the blocks are totally different! h22a, h22a4, h22a4 is open deck!</TD></TR></TABLE>


wtf???? .. its about base vs SH

all 5gens have open deck blocks h22a4
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