LostStranger

I have a 1993 Prelude with a H23A1 engine.
I recently changed the clutch and then bled it. I did start it after putting everything back together and it ran fine. Then I decided to wash the engine, yes now I know this was dumb.

4 days later, I've drained and charged my battery multiple times to the point where it is fried cranking this thing. I've got below, the write up of everything I've done and the results:

I have read a ton of forums, and nobody has exhibited an issue quite like mine, mostly due to the fact that their fixes don't seem to test out for me. I lost spark, fixed the spark and now it runs then dies and does NOT restart for 5 - 10 minutes. Generally it doesn't run more than 5 seconds.

The questions I have are as follows and center around next steps:

1. What does the measurement of 12.45 volts at the TPS indicate ?
2. Is it safe to unplug the TPS sensor and try to start it ? (I saw a forum thread cautioning against this)
3. Is there a way to reset the ECM so it has to relearn and is that a good possible solution?
4. Could this be an ignition switch? (I think not since it does actually start sometimes)
5. I'll be testing the fuel pressure PSI tonight when I get home but it's definitely got some pressure at the filter. Can anyone think of ANYTHING else it might be ?

It seems to idle down before dying, like it is struggling to catch itself before the rpm's fall too low.

LostStranger

A couple of notes:

The ECM is inside the car, under the carpet behind the glovebox so I don't think the ECM is soaked with water and just needs to be dried out.

I found this on the forums. I've never seen or known a vacuum leak to cause something this severe, is it actually possible that it could completely kill the engine and cause it to not start again for 5-10 minutes?
https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-prelude-4/end-all-idle-surge-bounce-etc-problems-thread-1979500/

LostStranger

Ok, long story short, can't test fuel pressure yet, my fittings and the ones from the auto parts store won't fit on the pressure testing port.

I found that I CAN reset the ECM by just removing the cables from the battery for 4 minutes and then putting them back on. I can now start my car every 4 minutes. However, it idles for a random number of seconds and then just dies. Resetting the ECM has at least gotten me to the point where I can reproduce this regularly.

So the remaining questions:

1. What does the measurement of 12.45 volts at the TPS indicate ?
2. Is it safe to unplug the TPS sensor and try to start it ? (I saw a forum thread cautioning against this)
4. Could this be an ignition switch? (I think not since it does actually start sometimes)
5. Can anyone think of ANYTHING else it might be ?

LostStranger

Unplugged TPS and started
Unplugged MAP Sensor and started
Only change is that the CEL came on, other than that it did the exact same thing.


Remaining Questions now:

1. What does the measurement of 12.45 volts at the TPS indicate ?
4. Could this be an ignition switch? (I think not since it does actually start sometimes)
5. Can anyone think of ANYTHING else it might be ?

holmesnmanny

From the car wash until the 4 days later you don't mention what exactly is the issue. That code you pasted really makes it hard to read.

Can you clean up your post please. Help us, help you.

LostStranger

My apologies, the code block was meant to make it easier to separate the diagnostics from description. I've changed it to a quote block, if there is something else you need changed please be specific so I know what you are expecting and I'll be happy to change that as well. However, there is an explanation of what is wrong under the code block on my first post:

And then a subsequent update in a post on "07-09-2014, 08:46 PM":
Basically, I remove the battery cable for four minutes and it resets the ECM. I can then start the car immediately, but it dies and won't restart until I reset the ECM again.

holmesnmanny

After you washed the car what was the IMMEDIATE issue ?

Check for any and all stored codes immediately after the next time the car dies and before you reset the ecu.

Remove the ecu and open it up and check for any burned spots.

LostStranger

The immediate issue was it would not start. That's why I tested the spark system. The spark system was failing, I narrowed it down to the distributor rotor or cap. I replaced both and got spark. After that, I began other tests which didn't work and is why I spun this thread up.

I checked several times for stored codes each time the engine died, before I reset the ECU. Oddly, the CEL just flickered and clicked at me so many times, so fast, I could not count them or make any sense out of it.

Pulled the ECU, no burn spots or broken solder points that I could see.

It is fixed for now though. Sadly the answer as to why isn't clear.

I was beginning to suspect the TPS so I unplugged it and left it unplugged while I started the car. It seemed to have no effect and that seemed odd to me, so I left the TPS unplugged, shut the car off and unplugged the battery. I did that last night after my last post. Then, about 3 hours ago, I got home from work, left the TPS unplugged, plugged in the battery and started the vehicle. It gave me the proper CEL code for TPS failure but idled for 15 minutes without issues. After that, I shut it down, plugged the TPS in, disconnected the battery for 4 minutes and started it. The CEL cleared and it hasn't died since. I have test driven it several miles and cannot get it to fail again.

Time will tell I guess!

*EDIT* Also, is there a good way to search for those needing help vs all of the other posts? I'd like to give back to this forum. I don't know a ton, but I feel like I could give back on simple issues and I myself could continue to learn as well.

yohan

This sounds like it could be the main relay, my prelude will start.. i'll drive it, then it'll start again barely and putter out ... when rolling the keys forward to ignition 2, do you hear the "click" from within the dash signalling the relay has clicked over ?

LostStranger

well, it's hard to tell when it was malfunctioning what the clicking was from. During failure, when turning the key to ignition 2 it would click repeatedly. I thought it was the CEL blinking off and on extremely fast though, since the CEL light was blinking so fast.

Maybe it was the relay clicking on and off or something, i'll see if I can find a tutorial for testing the main relay.

LostStranger

Found this and going to try it this weekend:

http://autorepair.about.com/od/engin...nrelay_tst.htm

I'm happy it is running again but wish I could have gotten a fuel pressure test while it was failing. It could have been very revealing to watch it die with the pressure guage on it to know for sure if it was losing fuel pressure first.

holmesnmanny

Is it cranking or not ? Did you check for fuel pressure ?

Bad tps isnt going to keep the car from starting.

LostStranger

I appreciate the last line of your comment, it's helpful and adds to the thread, thanks for that. However, the first two I find ridiculous. I've been trying to "play nice" and all, but I'm not sure you read a single line of my multiple posts. I have tons of information in there and I stated in those posts if it is cranking or not and if I checked for fuel pressure or not already.

I went through a lot of time and effort to make my post as readable as possible. I reformatted it at your request. I even made sure to update it every step of the way. Every time I see someone post in a forum, I see someone complain about their post. Too vague, nothing to go on, they didn't try, no testing and so on... But in reality I think people just want to complain so they can feel better. I don't think they want more information at all because then it would mean having to read the dang information and that just takes time... Why go through all the effort of actually reading the post and proving useful information if you can just add very little value and blast someone because they aren't as good as you.

Forums are a great idea, too bad there are so many people out there making the experience so terrible.

Fuel pressure tested today but it's still not failing so not sure what it's worth. Pressure tested at 35 psi, resistance tests for fuel relay tested good according to the article I previously posted.

Kiritch

ok, seem everything's alright now? or not?
BTW, 12.45V on TPS is overvoltage! Fully opened throttle cannot give more than 5V. So your current fuel mix is very rich.
Fuel pressure testing is good idea, but where measures took place? If on the exit of fuel pump then it's not good test. Also check fuel rail and injectors. You've already replaced fuel filter, right?

holmesnmanny

Nowhere in my post did i "blast" you. In fact i was quite polite, even resorting to say please. Nobody at this site makes any money from trying to help anyone one and many, like myself dedicate a lot of their "free" time helping other people and whos sole reward is seeing other people get their cars fixed. Im sorry my questions to you got you all butthurt. Its you that needs the attitude adjustment. If you were to look through my posts you would see ive done my share of helping out.

Good luck.

LostStranger

Yes, everything is running fine now for some reason. Thanks for answering my questions regarding the 12.45v on TPS, I thought the same but am not sure what can make that happen. I'll research more on that as soon as I wrap up this issue.

I have not replaced much of anything, as I was just going through tests trying to determine what was wrong and nothing was conclusive. So I have not replaced the fuel filter. I did test fuel pressure running out of the fuel filter and it was getting passed it though, and I tested my pressure at the fuel rail, where the Schrader valve is, right next to what I believe to be the fuel regulator.

From here, the only thing I can think to do is just assume that a component got wet when I decided to be a retard and wash the engine. I can only assume that whatever it was, it has since dried out and fixed the immediate issue. Obviously, I've at least determined that the TPS is receiving over voltage, and I found an oil leak. So I think i'll move on to fixing those things, and maybe i'll find a larger problem within that's existed for a while and happens to be the culprit of both.

If it happens again, i'll be testing the fuel relay first thing, but I know when it was failing I was getting fuel pressure, so I assume it will be a null result.

LostStranger

I apologize, I was extremely frustrated because you were posting questions I already provided the answers too. I actually went back and looked at some of your other posts when you first posted, and I don't disagree with you that you've been helpful. I just don't think this is one of those posts. Next time, i'll wait a few minutes before posting and more thoroughly think it through. There is no doubt that my post was directed more at a high percentage of posts I see than it was this specific one and it masked my real issue with your responses.

My real issue is that you kept asking me questions I had already answered and I spent a lot of time putting them up there the first time and each subsequent update. I became frustrated, because I had the answers already provided in my previous posts.