Ryanthegreat1

Anyone want to see more of this? 2011 CR-Z with a K24Z7 from a 2012 Civic Si.

Everything works AC, EPS, VSA, ABS, Tach, Speedo, Immobilizer.

This was the first day test fit just to see if the whole mess fits.

dueces

A guy in Davenport, IA just did this to a 2012 I believe, looks awesome! I think he is selling it for $16K, which considering the rarity and power, isn't too bad!

That would have to be a really fun car to daily, for sure! Once I'm done messing with the D16 in my insight, I'll probably go K, but I'm cheap, and K swaps aren't....

Ryanthegreat1

I also have an Insight that is K24A2 powered. This won't be nearly as quick, about 900lbs heavier.

K swaps are rather cheap if you can do a little of your own fabrication. Cheaper and more available than a B series. The secret is to buy a complete donor car or in this case both cars.

dueces

Oh I know! That will be my plan, I just mean I'm cheap, as in I have about $700 into my D16 swap, and I'm figuring after getting loose ends tied up with a K swap, I'll be in for about $2500. I don't think that is bad at all, just not in my current budget!

Have you ran your insight down the 1/4? With the N/A D16 it feels like a high 14's car, I would like to see what a low boost, stock D16 can do. I'd like to see high 11's or low 12's.


Back to the CRZ, are you doing this for a Daily or just something to work on?

John

Ryanthegreat1

Daily driver and wanted another project. Put 10k miles on the CR-Z in stock form in 4 months and started to get the itch for more power really bad. No passing power and complete lack of torque gets old quick. Also 31mpg stock is weak for a hybrid with no power.

K24 Insight is a blast but the lightness of the vehicle that makes it so great also makes it less fun as a daily. Tired of getting tossed around on the highway by semi truck bow wakes. And the CR-V in the background of the last picture is for making the Insight AWD.

I haven't had the Insight at the track but I know it will hang with an ATS-V at 570hp. Also upsets STIs from a dig.

Any links to that other CR-Z swap? I have only found a few that are documented. That Hasport/Eibach one doesn't have AC and they used the previous generation K20.

dueces

Nice! I don't know if you are following them, but S1Built is working on the Insight AWD system. I'm not interested in getting the rear trailing arms modified for my awd setup, I'll let them handle that! I still have a full AWD setup out of a 99 crv, and may use that some day for the same thing. S1Built actually used a B series trans bolted straight to the D16 with some modifications. It was pretty sweet seeing them do that.

I will look for a build thread, but idk if he ever had one. It's for sale on FB marketplace, so it should be easy to find if you search for davenport IA and CRZ.

I feel you on the interstate driving in the insight, thankfully I keep to the highway for most driving.

dueces

Here is the Ad, shows some decent pictures but nothing too in depth. Long list of parts though! ha ha.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...2810279720089/

Ryanthegreat1

Interesting news on the S1Built parts. I have started on the AWD design using 9th Gen Civic and 2nd gen CR-V parts. I was thinking LHT style AWD with independent rear suspension. Can't share pictures of that yet but I do have a 3D scanner and a little bit of CAD experience. I can share what I did for the engine mounts in the CR-Z.

dueces

Now that's bad ***! I just weld my crap terribly, even though I work in manufacturing.... Looks good!

AllMtrRex

How much does the cr-z weight with the k24z7 and how much does the insight weigh with the k swap?

Ryanthegreat1

CR-Z started at 2,588 lbs completely stock other than 205/50r16 tires on stock wheels. 1/8 tank of fuel.


CR-Z engine/IMA/transmission fully dressed is 373 lbs and the fully dressed 2012 Civic Si K24Z7/transmission is 474 lbs.

My guess is the finished weight will be +100lbs. Add the 11.8" front brakes and 2.5" stainless exhaust. Remove the IMA battery.

Should be able to get a finished weight this weekend. Last part to arrive is a clutch and then it all gets final assembly.

Ryanthegreat1

Immobilizer Detail

This is where I thought I would get stuck and need to rethink everything.

ZF1 CR-Z uses a Type 6 immobilizer where the 9th Gen SI uses a Type 7 immobilizer. Initial check shows they have common keys so no big deal! Or so I thought.

Digging into the wiring thinking I will just swap the immobilizer receiver ring on the ignition column and be on my way revealed this was not the case. The primary differences between Type 6 and Type 7 were revealed. Starting with the Type 6 the multiplex unit is now a participating member of the band with its own security code passed to the receiver that is then passed to the PCM for final inspection. Ruuhroh!

The Type 7 also includes the multiplex unit but how communication between the multiplex and the receiver has changed! With the Type 7 there is now a CAN hi and CAN low B-CAN communication to the receiver. Previously the in the Type 6 this communication line was just a single wire (probably serial) B-CAN. Not looking good.

But WAIT! Both versions still have a single wire S-CAN communication between the receiver and the PCM for the actual code transmission. What if the only change is the B-CAN to accommodate the SmartKey system and push button starters in the later revisions?

So I forged on leaving the Type 6 immobilizer receiver and multiplexer in the CR-Z and connected the S-CAN to the correct location on the Civic PCM.

Moment of truth, put the CR-Z key in and turn to the ON position. Flashing immobilizer light on the dash. Well okay that is expected. We know F-CAN is working now. Immobilizer light is controlled by the PCM on F-CAN in the Type 6 and 7.

Get out the Autel and jump into immobilizer programming. Go through the motions of all keys lost and adding new keys. Scan tool is saying everything is working and keys are programmed. Cycle the key, quick half second flash of the immobilizer and then off. Turn the key off, complete darkness. Hmmmm my previous experience is Type 2 to Type 3 and those flash the immobilizer light 5 times on key off with a good key. Digging deeper turns out the 6 and 7 do not flash the immobilizer light with a good key. Whew! Okay time to see if it starts! Crank, fire, 2 seconds, dies. ARRGGG NOOOOO. NO immobilizer light, scan tool says everything in the immobilizer is happy, no failed key attempts in the logs. Start, run 2 seconds die. Well what in the....

So rinse and repeat the start and die over and over while I double check all my wiring and beat my head on the wall trying all manner of things with reprogramming the immobilizer. Then I noticed that Civic airbox across the room with that MAF sensor stuck in it... Toss the airbox in, plug in the MAF. Fires right up and keeps running. SUCCESS!!! BUT Y U NO RUN WITHOUT MAF?! It has a MAP sensor, should be able to run speed density just like every Honda before. But no.

Anyway all that to say you can use Type 6 immobilizer components with a Type 7 PCM successfully. No keys need to be cut, no taping an immobilizer ring and key together and tossing under the dash, no disabling the immobilizer with a tuner. In fact ZERO wiring needed under or in the dash. Simply connect S-CAN and program keys.

Ryanthegreat1

Any one care to guess how much weight was gained doing the swap?

dueces

-17 pounds. I'm saying you are just slightly lighter! Absolutely no basis for this, just a random guess!

Ryanthegreat1

I wish! IMA stuff was heavy at 80lbs but the K series was heavier. IMA battery, plastic and metal case, blower fan, steel support bar, and air ducts were all part of the rear IMA weight of 80lbs. The battery alone was 67lbs.

Gained 55lbs. With a 63.4% front weight bias. Pushed 4.2% forward. Was 59.2% stock.

Not as bad as I was expecting. Still 234lbs lighter than the advertised weight for a 2012 Si Coupe. It is quick but not anything as quick as the Insight K swap.

dueces

What if you swapped the battery to the rear? I know you would be adding a few more pounds with some good 0ga wire, but it could bring that percentage back to stock, or even improve it slightly, depending on where exactly you put the battery.

I look at the CRZ as a "production version" of the original Insight that we have. It's what happens when the bureaucrats and bean counters get involved. If Honda went back to their light and nimble roots, they could make some insane performance cars with where we are now.

On a side note, did you get factory mounts to work in the CRZ? I know that the Civic Hybrid can actually drop a K straight into it with varying stock mounts, wasn't sure if the CRZ was like that.

John

Ryanthegreat1

I reused the CR-Z mounts and adapted to those. I had the Civic Si mounts on hand but they are not correct.

The problems with the Civic mounts,

Transmission mount won't bolt to the CR-Z body. Not tall enough to reach the upper bolt hole and too narrow to span the lower bolt holes.
Lower torque mount on the Civic is off to the right side, CR-Z torque mount is dead center. Moving the torque mount means competing for space with the steering rack mount.
Timing cover mount. Not even close bud. There is an upper torque mount as well as a gel filled post mount. Torque mount goes to the shock tower in the Civic and doesn't exist on the CR-Z. Post mount sits more towards the rear of the bay and the CR-Z shock tower takes up that space.

I did use a combination of Civic and CR-Z mounts to get the initial positioning for checking fitment and getting a 3D scan. That situation was in no way usable for driving.

All that said the CR-Z rubbers are very adequate for the torque the K24 makes. And most importantly no unwanted vibrations or dash shaking.

Stock intake tube is only there for the test drive. Sadly the full Civic airbox does not fit in this space.

Hasport

thats a good looking swap. i like the work you did

Ryanthegreat1

Thanks! I certainly follow your builds and nearly went with the L15B7 you guys have been test fitting in various platforms.

Ryanthegreat1

Brakes, Hubs, Axles

Axles should have been easy right? Civic and CR-Z share the same front track width, Civic is a 27 spline inner and a 28 spline outer while the CR-Z is 27 spline inner and 26 spline outer. So far lots of commonalities so it should work? Either figure out 28 spline hubs or reuse the CR-Z axles, easy! Well that is not the case. CR-Z axles end up being too long and bottoming the inner joint even at full droop.

Then it was how to reuse the Civic axles with the larger and more desirable 28 spline outer CV joint. Swap the knuckle would be easy enough. Until you put the two knuckles side by side and realize they share nothing. Strut pinch bolts are on a different angle and spacing and are wider. Steering arm is longer on the Civic (would produce a slower steering feel), steering ball joints are flipped. And then the real hard stop was presenting the Civic knuckle to the CR-Z lower ball joint. CR-Z has a MASSIVE lower ball joint. Threads won't even fit in the tapered portion of the Civic knuckle. Odd they put such a large ball joint on a relatively light car but I have heard the CR-Z shares suspension stuff with the Euro FN2 Civic Type R.

Plan B was to take some 28 spline 5x114.3 hubs and turn them down to fit the CR-Z front wheel bearings. Starting with CR-V hubs as they have the smallest bearings and turning them down from 45mm to 43mm things were looking good. Then it was time to find out that the much larger outside CV joints don't clear the inside of the CR-Z knuckles. A carbide burr made short work of adding some needed clearance. And with Civic axles now fitting CR-Z hubs it was time to see if the axles fit the car. Left hand side assembled first and everything fits perfect! Get the right side assembled and draw the axle nut down annndddd the inner tripod is bulging out the boot. Just about 1/2-3/4" too short! Go digging around catalogs of other Hondas that use the same 27/28 spline combo and found the 04-08 TSX has a right side axle that is 23/32" longer. Picked up a low mile used shaft at the wreckers and it was a perfect fit! Axles solved and I get to run the bigger joints!

All along I was eyeballing those 11.8" front rotors on the Civic. More power needs more brakes and the 10.3" rotors on the CR-Z were marginal at stock power levels. Turns out the 11.8" setup is a direct bolt on for the CR-Z knuckles. Just need to remember to swap calipers from left to right, Civic has trailing calipers and CR-Z has leading calipers and the bleeders would be upside down if not swapped. I reused the CR-Z brake lines as the had all the correct mounting tabs. And the best part is the larger brakes just clear the stock 16" wheels on the CR-Z.

Clearance on the stock 16" wheels with the 11.8" brakes.

Ryanthegreat1

Emissions

Stock Civic primary cat was reused, and the stock Civic downpipe(?) with secondary cat nearly would have worked. It did not have the clearance for the front sway bar so it got cut up. Built a custom 3" downpipe from primary cat to stock secondary cat. This worked out really well as the secondary cat became the reducer from 3" to 2.5". The cat back is stainless mandrel bends with the largest Magnaflows that would fit and v-bands to couple everything together. Resonator was a 6x18 round muffler and the rear just squeezed in a 5x8x18 oval. This is probably close to Si sound levels. Little loud on a cold start. Maybe still too loud for my taste but it is pretty mellow and very smooth.

EVAP system was identical in how it is controlled by the PCM so nothing special there. The EVAP vent line on the CR-Z is 12mm and the Civic is 8mm so a reducer was needed.

All emissions readiness tests are complete and passing. This should be an emissions legal swap, even CARB legal. Emissions systems are unmodified, engine and PCM are stock, no codes stored in the PCM, engine is from a newer model vehicle. Not sure how CARB handles making a hybrid not a hybrid. I would bet that doesn't come up too often. I need to figure this out in WA as they are now charging an additional $75 at tab renewal for all hybrid vehicles to pay for subsidized EV charging stations. I know right? Seeing as I now have two hybrids that are no longer sporting hybrid hardware I should figure out getting that fee removed.

3" downpipe with front sway bar clearance.


Secondary cat as the 3" to 2.5" reducer. Prior to adding the downstream O2 sensor.

Ryanthegreat1

Quick shot of the gauges showing everything is working. The IMA SOC gauge is now an engine temp gauge. Haven't decided what to do with the IMA Charge/Assist graph. Maybe vacuum/boost. Though I don't think I have found manifold pressure on CAN bus.

Ryanthegreat1

Air Conditioning

AC lines needed to be custom. Problem the first, the lines off the compressor are oriented in a completely different direction. This required using the compressor lines off the Civic and adapting them to the CR-Z. The suction hose ended up being easy, cut the ferrule off the body side and crimp the CR-Z fitting back on the Civic hose.

The compressor discharge hose was a little more involved. On the CR-Z this hose has the high pressure service port. That service port ends up being right about where the alternator for the K24 now sits. The final solution ended up being the rubber and lower part of the Civic discharge hose with the condenser fitting from the CR-Z and bend from a CR-V welded together and then crimped to the Civic hose.


The condenser output line ended up being the most challenging. This line has a pressure sensor that is right where the AC compressor now lives and remember that service port that was removed? Cut and paste a few parts from a few different AC lines I have left over and we get clearance for the pressure sensor and an accessible high side service port. This welding small diameter aluminum tubing was new to me. Just a small pin hole leak in 1 weld. Will need to get that pulled out and touched up.


Then the electronics. All of the AC commands are handled over CAN bus for both the CR-Z and the Civic. And of course they are not the same commands. With Arduino I am reading the CAN bus looking for that AC request and then writing to the bus the Civic's version of the request. Everything works exactly as intended.

Also a must is cutting the core support for clearance of the AC compressor. Really no way around this. The outer more structural part of the core support is left intact.

Ryanthegreat1

Shift Linkage

Civic shift cables with the firewall gasket and brackets from the CR-Z linkage swapped over. Use a razor to make a slit to split the rubber gasket and swap the cables. When installed there is enough crush on the gasket to squeeze the slit shut for a decent seal. CR-Z cables are probably 10" shorter and have no chance of working.

CR-Z shift box needs some modifications to work correctly. The retaining clips on the Civic cables are a different style and don't directly fit on the CR-Z box. A little work with a carbide burr and a file to open up the mounting locations and everything locks in place like stock.

Then to find out the shift lever was not centered front to back or left to right. This made access to reverse impossible as there was not enough travel side to side and 1-3-5 were right at the end of travel for the shift lever. Not ideal.

Civic box was not going to physically fit under the CR-Z console so that option was out. Pulling the shift levers out of both boxes to swap the levers was a great idea until both levers were on the bench side by side. The pivot ***** are very different in size and there is no swapping the pivot sockets.

Looking at the levers it was very clear the motion ratios are different. The Civic has an 8mm longer lever for the side to side motion and 4mm longer front to back lever. Time to get out the welder.

On the CR-Z lever I added 10mm to the side to side and 6mm to the front to back to also get a slightly shorter throw. Also moved the front to back ball rear ward 12mm to center the shift lever in the gate. This has fixed the shifting errors and retained that stock+ feel and it all fits under the stock lower console.

Side to side extension with an aluminum spacer to space the linkage out 10mm to match the now 10mm longer lever arm.


Front to back extension moved rearward and slightly extended.

efi2nr

clean swap! How did you get the engine temp to show up in place of the ima?