the TRUTH about the 5-lug swap re: front knuckles and suspension geometry
#26
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Re: the TRUTH about the 5-lug swap re: front knuckles and suspension geometry (Wes V)
I've seen that link for Heldmotorsports and their "dropped" knuckles.
The idea is good and they look to be well constructed, but there are a couple things that seem strange.
They say that they fit;
"88-91 Civic"
"92-01 Civic"
"94-01 Civic with 10.3" rotor"
"94-01 Integra"
If the geometry is correct and matching the original car (except for the location of the wheel bearing), then how can it possibly fit all of those cars?
Don't the Integras use different size bearings (outside diameter and inside diameter) than the early Civics?
It would seem that you could use 01 Integra hubs, and brakes and then put it in an 88 civic without changing the geometry from what the car had originally (other than being lower).
Something just isn't presented right!
Wes
The idea is good and they look to be well constructed, but there are a couple things that seem strange.
They say that they fit;
"88-91 Civic"
"92-01 Civic"
"94-01 Civic with 10.3" rotor"
"94-01 Integra"
If the geometry is correct and matching the original car (except for the location of the wheel bearing), then how can it possibly fit all of those cars?
Don't the Integras use different size bearings (outside diameter and inside diameter) than the early Civics?
It would seem that you could use 01 Integra hubs, and brakes and then put it in an 88 civic without changing the geometry from what the car had originally (other than being lower).
Something just isn't presented right!
Wes
I'm assuming they build to order, and that they will weld up the arms for the car you want them for.....
#27
#1 Super Guy
iTrader: (2)
Re: the TRUTH about the 5-lug swap re: front knuckles and suspension geometry
If you have had the Type-R knuckles on there for so long without incident, there is no sense changing it now. Especially if you don't experience any UCA-to-shock tower interference. The taller knuckle does alter geometry, but only very minimally in the following ways:
- Increased static camber
- Increased camber gain through suspension stroke
- very slight increase in roll center height (increases roll stiffness)
- very slight reduction in caster (increses turn-in response)
- Increased static camber
- Increased camber gain through suspension stroke
- very slight increase in roll center height (increases roll stiffness)
- very slight reduction in caster (increses turn-in response)
#28
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Re: the TRUTH about the 5-lug swap re: front knuckles and suspension geometry
If you have had the Type-R knuckles on there for so long without incident, there is no sense changing it now. Especially if you don't experience any UCA-to-shock tower interference. The taller knuckle does alter geometry, but only very minimally in the following ways:
- Increased static camber
- Increased camber gain through suspension stroke
- very slight increase in roll center height (increases roll stiffness)
- very slight reduction in caster (increses turn-in response)
- Increased static camber
- Increased camber gain through suspension stroke
- very slight increase in roll center height (increases roll stiffness)
- very slight reduction in caster (increses turn-in response)
I had considered that.
But this season I was hoping to lower the car more and run wider tyres. That is where the interference would come into play. :/
#29
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Re: the TRUTH about the 5-lug swap re: front knuckles and suspension geometry (Booste
*Ya coming back from the dead.
Well the custom knuckle guys say it'll be $3k to make an itr unit because they'll have to make new jigs. That's cost prohibitive.
I offered to start a group buy, but they declined at this time.
I'm going to go the ex/ siR knuckle route.
But after doing some thinking about it, I'm going to try and have the knuckle machined to have it be able to accept the bigger itr wheel bearing with a .001" interference fit.
This way, I won't sacrifice bearing or hub strength.
If this works, I'll post up the how-to.
Last edited by Black R; 06-04-2010 at 08:14 PM. Reason: typo
#30
Honda-Tech Member
Re: the TRUTH about the 5-lug swap re: front knuckles and suspension geometry (Booste
*Ya coming back from the dead.
Well the custom knuckle guys say it'll be $3k to make an itr unit because they'll have to make new jigs. That's cost prohibitive.
I offered to start a group buy, but they declined at this time.
I'm going to go the ex/ siR knuckle route.
But after doing some thinking about it, I'm going to try and have the knuckle machined to have it be able to accept the bigger itr wheel bearing with a .001" interference fit.
This way, I won't sacrifice bearing or hub strength.
If this works, I'll post up the how-to.
Well the custom knuckle guys say it'll be $3k to make an itr unit because they'll have to make new jigs. That's cost prohibitive.
I offered to start a group buy, but they declined at this time.
I'm going to go the ex/ siR knuckle route.
But after doing some thinking about it, I'm going to try and have the knuckle machined to have it be able to accept the bigger itr wheel bearing with a .001" interference fit.
This way, I won't sacrifice bearing or hub strength.
If this works, I'll post up the how-to.
#31
B*a*n*n*e*d
Re: the TRUTH about the 5-lug swap re: front knuckles and suspension geometry
i have itr hubs machined down to fit my ef wheel bearings and have run on this setup for quite a few years with absolutely no problems what so ever. It's a very affordable solution and based on my experience there is no need to worry about the hub strength integrity.
my crx is down right now but since it is down i even went ahead and pressed the hubs out and machined the OD of the hub down so I can fit 11.8" rotors and the s2k calipers. i still do not see the minimal material being removed as a threat against the strength of the hub itself.
my crx is down right now but since it is down i even went ahead and pressed the hubs out and machined the OD of the hub down so I can fit 11.8" rotors and the s2k calipers. i still do not see the minimal material being removed as a threat against the strength of the hub itself.
#32
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Re: the TRUTH about the 5-lug swap re: front knuckles and suspension geometry
Thank you for your input.
Do you autox or road race the car at all?
Also, I didn't quite understand what you meant here:
Can you expound on this a bit?
Do you autox or road race the car at all?
Also, I didn't quite understand what you meant here:
my crx is down right now but since it is down i even went ahead and pressed the hubs out and machined the OD of the hub down so I can fit 11.8" rotors and the s2k calipers. i still do not see the minimal material being removed as a threat against the strength of the hub itself.
Last edited by Black R; 06-06-2010 at 09:14 PM.
#35
B*a*n*n*e*d
Re: the TRUTH about the 5-lug swap re: front knuckles and suspension geometry
what I meant by the second part of my post is that my CRX is not running right now, so while it is down (not running) I machined down the outer diameter (OD) of the hub (the part where the wheel studs go through not the part that goes into the wheel bearing) so that the 11.8" RSX-S or S2K rotors would fit over them.
All of that basically meaning that I took even more material off of the hub itself (both the OD of the part that goes into the wheel bearing and the OD of the part that the studs go through) and I believe that the structural integrity of the hub is in no way weakened so much that I would think that it could or would break.
#36
Re: the TRUTH about the 5-lug swap re: front knuckles and suspension geometry
It was road raced a couple of times, but not much. But where I live there are lost of twisty, curvy roads and I tore through them frequently, lol.
what I meant by the second part of my post is that my CRX is not running right now, so while it is down (not running) I machined down the outer diameter (OD) of the hub (the part where the wheel studs go through not the part that goes into the wheel bearing) so that the 11.8" RSX-S or S2K rotors would fit over them.
All of that basically meaning that I took even more material off of the hub itself (both the OD of the part that goes into the wheel bearing and the OD of the part that the studs go through) and I believe that the structural integrity of the hub is in no way weakened so much that I would think that it could or would break.
what I meant by the second part of my post is that my CRX is not running right now, so while it is down (not running) I machined down the outer diameter (OD) of the hub (the part where the wheel studs go through not the part that goes into the wheel bearing) so that the 11.8" RSX-S or S2K rotors would fit over them.
All of that basically meaning that I took even more material off of the hub itself (both the OD of the part that goes into the wheel bearing and the OD of the part that the studs go through) and I believe that the structural integrity of the hub is in no way weakened so much that I would think that it could or would break.
This sounds like a good idea to me I'm thining of doing this as well. How long have you been on this setup? Also I have a crx so would the type r calipers bolt on to my knuckles or yours for that matter?
#37
B*a*n*n*e*d
Re: the TRUTH about the 5-lug swap re: front knuckles and suspension geometry
i do have the 90-91 ex knuckle. this setup has been on the car for quite a few years now.
#39
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Re: the TRUTH about the 5-lug swap re: front knuckles and suspension geometry
*Long overdue update*
Thanks to user GSR CRX for the links to Karcepts website!
This season I have decided to go with the DA ABS knuckles and some custom hubs from Karcepts:
I spoke to Brian Karwan this morning and my new 5lug conversion 36mm hubs are on the way! (PN: KWH08)
I need to get them installed with new DA bearings in the DA ABS knuckles, then test fit and measure to see what axles I should use.
I'm hoping stock rsx-s axles will work!
And of course I may have to space the abs sensors out by 1mm or so.
This will be a good upgrade, because I have installed a supercharger and the beefier axles will be a good safeguard.
Besides, one of my axle boots decided to explode and spew grease everywhere - so it has to come out to get fixed anyway.
Thanks to user GSR CRX for the links to Karcepts website!
This season I have decided to go with the DA ABS knuckles and some custom hubs from Karcepts:
I spoke to Brian Karwan this morning and my new 5lug conversion 36mm hubs are on the way! (PN: KWH08)
I need to get them installed with new DA bearings in the DA ABS knuckles, then test fit and measure to see what axles I should use.
I'm hoping stock rsx-s axles will work!
And of course I may have to space the abs sensors out by 1mm or so.
This will be a good upgrade, because I have installed a supercharger and the beefier axles will be a good safeguard.
Besides, one of my axle boots decided to explode and spew grease everywhere - so it has to come out to get fixed anyway.
Last edited by Black R; 01-22-2014 at 07:41 AM.
#42
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