Black R

I've had a 5-lug swap on my 91 si hatch for several years now.

My reasoning for going with this swap was that I already had the parts laying around AND I wanted to have better braking + add the itr ABS to the car. I did this because I also did an engine swap at the same time and felt that better braking would be needed.

I mainly autox this car and attend the occasional lapping day.
It is somewhat streetable but the ride is quite stiff (due to the 11kF/ 16kR rates on the n1 coilovers), and loud (2.5" side exit exhaust).
I have retained AC and daily drove the car for a three years without a hiccup.

Now I have read on here and elsewhere that the suspension geometry would be 'messed up' if I used the itr front knuckles - which is what I did at the time, not knowing any better.

Sometime later, I came upon this post regarding what is needed to properly convert an EF to 5-lug:


I also found this web page:

http://battlecat.8m.com/ITR%20...A.htm

So I purchased some siR front knuckles from a local guy in the hopes that this would be the solution to my problem. I compared them to the itr front knuckles on my EF currently, and they looked very similar in dimensions and measurements. At that time, I thought maybe what I had purchased wasn't siR knuckles. So I purchased another set from a well known user here on h-t. These are identical to the siR knuckles I originally purchased.

Here are the measurements I took tonight:

siR knuckle set #1:

Left - has stampings on the back (LH3-A) and front (9GJ)
Right - has stampings on the back (RH#-A) and front (1CK)

The caliper mounting bolt holes are 5.5" from center to center.

There are no abs sensor mounting points on them.

They measure 16" from the top of the lower ball joint to the top of the knuckle where it mounts to the upper ball joint @ the highest point:




They measure 11.5" from the highest point to the upper caliper mounting bolt hole center:



They measure 16 & 7/8" from the highest point to the lower caliper mounting bolt hole center:


They measure 14 & 1/8" from the highest point to the tie rod mounting hole center:



siR knuckle set #2:

Left - has stampings on the back (LH3-A) and front (9G4)
Right - has stampings on the back (RH#-A) and front (9G6)

The rest of the measurements are identical to set #1.


I also measured the itr front knuckles (please note that these are currently mounted on the car, so some of the measurements may not be quite as exact, as the brake lines and axle are somewhat in the way):

They measure ~16.5" to 17" from the top of the lower ball joint to the top of the knuckle where it mounts to the upper ball joint @ the highest point.

They measure 11" from the highest point to the upper caliper mounting bolt hole center.

They measure 17" from the highest point to the lower caliper mounting bolt hole center.

They measure 14" from the highest point to the tie rod mounting hole center.

So there you have it.

There is only .5" difference in height of the itr knuckle compared to the siR knuckle. Imho, it is negligible but I want to do it right.

Here are the possible solutions as I see them:

Solution #1: Purchase these: http://www.heldmotorsports.com...s.htm
Cons:
-price (~$500)
-strength?
-I'd have to get custom ones made that would have abs sensor mounting points and are 1.5" shorter than stock EF length but with itr wheel bearing and brake dimensions.

Solution #2: Use the siR knuckles that I have, but machine the itr spindles to fit into the EF wheel bearings.
Cons:
-compromised strength of the spindle after being machined .5mm to fit into the EF wheel bearings.
-no abs sensor mounting points, so these would have to be welded on.

Solution #3: Same as #2, but with custom wheel bearings with inner aperture the same size as dc2, but circumference the same size as ef, so that the spindle integrity wouldn't be compromised.

Solution #4: Do nothing. It's about ~.5" or so difference in length.

I'm leaning towards #1, although it's the most expensive solution.

I'll update this thread as I work towards a solution.


Modified by Black R at 2:22 AM 6/20/2007

c.dub

This is very informative! Please keep us posted on your progress. As for my opinion on the problem at hand, I think option #1 is the best as long as strength isn't compromised.

alexsracing

nice keep us posted im putting the 5lug conversion on my ef 4door but i need to find me some rear trailing arms

Hiii Im TYLER

right on man, I am planning on doing a 5lug on the rex sometime this summer.

ef92b

GL man and thanks for sharing this info.

Black R

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by alexsracing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">nice keep us posted im putting the 5lug conversion on my ef 4door but i need to find me some rear trailing arms </TD></TR></TABLE>


I *think* you can use the ef rear trailing arms and just install the itr spindle/ wheel bearing. I can't remember what I did - because one of my itr rear trailing arms was bent...

89efDUSTY

iTrader: (4)

nice

Black R

Just got an interesting (and related) link from Bob_760:

http://technet.ff-squad.com/how-to/5lug.ef-da/

Also, he's inquired about purchasing one of these sets of siR knuckles and they will be for sale once I get this all figured out.

GraphiteAccord

I had a set of the SIR knuckles/91 EX...and while they are the hot setup, I had absolutely no problems with handling on my EF with the 5 lug, and it was a track *****. Infact, after the swap, the car spent more time on a roadcourse then it did on the street.

and to refresh your memory....

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1175314

kid-honda

iTrader: (2)

i got the 90/91 ex knuckles to do my swap and as far as I have been told is the sir knuckles are NOT the same as the ex ones?

rsca_crx

have a look at where the tie rod bolts to the sir knuckle compared to the ex knuckle.

WWDTrackRacer

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/DrOhm/SiRkuckles.html

SiR knuckles have tie rod issues to overcome.

DA knuckles are the least headache. And my fellow track buddy ED6 runs DA knuckles and his car drives perfect on the circuits.

Boosted Chemist

iTrader: (1)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rsca_crx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">have a look at where the tie rod bolts to the sir knuckle compared to the ex knuckle.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hey pal, hows life?

TO overcome this issue, ive read cut the inner tie rod by 1" and it should aline properly

Wes V

My feeling is that the way written up by Katman is the way to do it. (EX knuckles and turned down hubs to fit the bearings)

Wes

WWDTrackRacer

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Wes V &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My feeling is that the way written up by Katman is the way to do it. (EX knuckles and turned down hubs to fit the bearings)</TD></TR></TABLE>

The EX knuckle offers the correct geometry -- but it still uses the smaller bearing (and hub?). Those of us who track these hard, need a bigger bearing for better endurance.

For those street machines, you should stick with EX knuckles.

Wes V

I've seen that link for Heldmotorsports and their "dropped" knuckles.

The idea is good and they look to be well constructed, but there are a couple things that seem strange.

They say that they fit;

"88-91 Civic"
"92-01 Civic"
"94-01 Civic with 10.3" rotor"
"94-01 Integra"

If the geometry is correct and matching the original car (except for the location of the wheel bearing), then how can it possibly fit all of those cars?

Don't the Integras use different size bearings (outside diameter and inside diameter) than the early Civics?

It would seem that you could use 01 Integra hubs, and brakes and then put it in an 88 civic without changing the geometry from what the car had originally (other than being lower).

Something just isn't presented right!

Wes

Boosted Chemist

iTrader: (1)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Wes V &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

It would seem that you could use 01 Integra hubs, and brakes and then put it in an 88 civic without changing the geometry from what the car had originally (other than being lower).

Wes</TD></TR></TABLE>

You cant, unless you use a caliper spacing bracket. The ef si/dx/std places the holes for the calipers in towards the hubs compared to the integra/ex

rsca_crx

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Boosted Chemist &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Hey pal, hows life?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hey man, I've been out of town, and hondas, for a while but things have been really good and I'm getting ready to get the ball rollin' again.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by WWDTrackRacer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

The EX knuckle offers the correct geometry -- but it still uses the smaller bearing (and hub?). Those of us who track these hard, need a bigger bearing for better endurance.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Can you back that up a bit? I haven't seen or heard of any racers having the kinds of bearing problems that justify what you are saying. CRX hubs do need to get changed yearly if you aren't running somthing that is hardened, but I can't see how more positive camber on a track car could ever be worth the trade off of having to press in new bearings twice a year.

WWDTrackRacer

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rsca_crx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Can you back that up a bit? I haven't seen or heard of any racers having the kinds of bearing problems that justify what you are saying. CRX hubs do need to get changed yearly if you aren't running somthing that is hardened, but I can't see how more positive camber on a track car could ever be worth the trade off of having to press in new bearings twice a year.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I lost a wheel hub, bearing, axle at Big Willow. I've seen others with similar failures post on here. Of course you could do the semi-annual replacement you're advocating, but this is quite the expense. bearing + new wheel studs, plus you're talking about labor (alignment and R+R) And that's if you don't choose to replace the hub too.

I have a ITR, Integra, and Civic bearings ... and the Civic bearing is puny. For those running B-series -- you ought to consider an Integra bearing at least IMO or be prepared to replace them regularly.

rsca_crx

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by WWDTrackRacer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I lost a wheel hub, bearing, axle at Big Willow. I've seen others with similar failures post on here. Of course you could do the semi-annual replacement you're advocating, but this is quite the expense. bearing + new wheel studs, plus you're talking about labor (alignment and R+R) And that's if you don't choose to replace the hub too.

I have a ITR, Integra, and Civic bearings ... and the Civic bearing is puny. For those running B-series -- you ought to consider an Integra bearing at least IMO or be prepared to replace them regularly. </TD></TR></TABLE>

do you know what failed first? i'm not trying to come off like i'm being argumentative, it's just that i've broken 2 hubs and definately see the weaknesses there, but haven't ever had a problem with a bearing.

this was back when i replaced the bearings every year, but reused the hubs. I now replace the hubs every year or so, and the bearings once or twice a year.

WWDTrackRacer

My impression was the bearing fails (starts to drag/wobble), and the inertia of the wheel assembly twists the hub causing it to fail. Have you compared the hub/bearing assemblies to each other? You might feel differently if you have them in hand...

ef9typer

I need to know if anybody can help me out. I have a 1990 with a 04 rsx full suspension swap, I want to know what outer tie rods I need to use. I bought ones from a 1998 itr will they work?

ef9typer

Hey there, Can you tell me what outer tie rods you used for this. I have a 1990 Si with a 04 rsx suspension conversion. i bought ones from a 1998 itr will they work the shops having aligning problems factory ones are too long.

BiG Chris

im in for the good info

Player_One

I thought since I wasn't able to find front and rear rotors for a 5-lug ITR (they kept giving me 4 lug Integra rotors), I thought I'd find compatible rotors from other applications so they can't screw things up... Here's my findings, thanks to Brembo's site.

Note that this info is focused mostly on rotors that will work with the ITR calipers. I threw on the RSX-S fronts because I was thinking about going up in size if possible.

Brembo Europe part #s:
OEM: 45251-SPO-000 or 45215-S2H-N00
09.6893.10 - Acura 97-01 ITR (Front) Diameter 282.0mm, thickness 23.0mm, min thickness 21.0mm, height 47.1mm, hole 70.2mm, 5 lug
09.6893.10 - Honda 97-01 CR-V(Front) Diameter 282.0mm, thickness 23.0mm, min thickness 21.0mm, height 47.1mm, hole 70.2mm, 5 lug
09.6893.10 - Honda 97-01 Prelude (Front) Diameter 282.0mm, thickness 23.0mm, min thickness 21.0mm, height 47.1mm, hole 70.2mm, 5 lug

OEM: 45251-S6M-A10 (EP3 Civic Type R, DC5 RSX Type S, probably DC5 Integra Type R)
09.9544.10 - Honda 03+ Civic Type R (Front) Diameter 300.0mm, thickness 25.0mm, min thickness 23.0mm, height 47.0mm, hole 64.1mm, 5 lug

Could not find any European part #s for rear rotors for above applications.


Brembo North American part #s:
25831 - Acura 02-06 RSX (Front) Diameter 300.0mm, thickness 25.0mm, min thickness 23.0mm, height 47.0mm
25464 - Acura 97-01 ITR (Front) Diameter 282.0mm, thickness 23.0mm, min thickness 21.0mm, height 47.1mm
25464 - Honda 97-01 CR-V (Front) Diameter 282.0mm, thickness 23.0mm, min thickness 21.0mm, height 47.1mm
25464 - Honda 97-01 Prelude (Front) Diameter 282.0mm, thickness 23.0mm, min thickness 21.0mm, height 47.1mm

25550 - Acura 02-06 RSX (Rear) Diameter 259.7mm, thickness 9.0mm, min thickness 8.0mm, height 48.3mm
25550 - Acura 97-01 ITR (Rear) Diameter 259.7mm, thickness 9.0mm, min thickness 8.0mm, height 48.3mm
25686 - Honda 97-01 Prelude (Rear) Diameter 259.7mm, thickness 9.0mm, min thickness 8.0mm, height 42.2mm

Modified by Player_One at 12:47 PM 9/15/2007


Modified by Player_One at 12:49 PM 9/15/2007