clsmooth

My 1990 Civic Wagon is FWD mainly because I couldn't find an AWD version when I was in the market for one. And, as it turns out, it's almost as if it's better that I didn't get one with it. Actually, I did find one locally that was AWD, but it was auto, and rusting so bad that, at the right angle, you could see into the trunk from the outside. I thought to myself, "I don't want AWD this bad." I never had AWD before (in my previous CRX), so I don't feel that I'm missing anything.

Since I've got my Wagon, I joined a Civic Wagon chat forum on Yahoo. Most of the people in the group are family people who are content that their cars starts in the morning, so aren't as concerned or focused on performance as much. Which is fine with me. But there are a few who want to go faster and one of the guys Auto-X's and rally's his AWD as hard as I do my FWD (well, Auto-X, anyway). He said it's quite tricky to control his car in the corners.

First, you have to keep in mind that Honda's AWD is call Real-Time Four Wheel Drive. Basically, to make a long story short, Honda's RT4WD is actually FWD until it HAS to be AWD. The rear wheels only engage when the front wheels start to slip. If you were to look at a new CRV, the RT4WD in that car is more of a "2nd Gen." AWD system. It's electronically controlled, so it's more sensitive and responsive. I'm sure with some wiring tricks, you could probably keep in AWD all the time!

Now, if you compare that to an '88 - '91 Civic Wagon (or even including the '84 - '87), those are more of a "1st Gen." AWD. It still FWD until the front slips, then the rear wheels engage. However, in these Wagon's, the AWD system is NOT electronically controlled, it is a more basic mechanical type AWD. The rear wheels engage based on the drive-train's springs, counter-weights, viscous couplers, etc. re-actions to the load shift and tire slip.

So, from the straigh-away going into the corner, the car is FWD. When initially turning the steering wheel, being that it's in FWD, understeer is experienced and the front tire start to slip for a second or two. After that second or two, the drive system notices the front slipping and engages the rear. The car stabalizes and has power to all four wheels, for a second or two. After that second or two, the drive system notices grip and shuts itself off and goes back to FWD. So, throughout the corner the car is switching from FWD to AWD, causing the car to "shimmy" and look likes it's "wiggling" throughout the corner. Even if it's something the driver becomes used to, it's still quite to difficult to control because it is so unpredictable. Even the time it takes to switch "modes" is not uniform, as well as the time spent in each "mode". You might be in FWD for 3 - 4 seconds, at one time, and AWD for 1 - 2 seconds. I think Honda desgined RT4WD this way because you get better gas mileage when in FWD, on the highway for instance.

Also, because of the age of these cars by now, the AWD systems don't respond well to mods and/or performance. I believe that over 10 years ago, Honda had no intension of people lowering or swapping motors in these wagons. You are probably still capable of lowering an AWD wagon, but perhaps to the limit of a Sport Drop. As far as power, the JDM version of a fully loaded Civic wagon was AWD with a ZC. The power limit of the AWD system is most likely limited to a N/A ZC setup. Which would be the limit for anyone, because if you have an AWD wagon, the AWD tranny will only accept a ZC or D-Series as a "bolt-on". Within the wagon group, there is/was talk about swapping in a B-Series with a AWD CRV tranny and drive-train, but for sure, it would require aftermarket mounts and customizing the drive-train to fit the Civic wagon body. Because of the age of the vehicles now, it is also expensive to repair the AWD system, if used parts can't be found at a wrecker. The AWD Civic wagon was fairly rare to begin with, and some wreckers are aware of this. Then again, some wreckers I've been to, didn't even know there was a Civic wagon made. I've seen AWD wagon's have the drive-train wear out and seize due to extreme performance measures. The CV joints, the rear diff., the drive train can't take the extremes, almost as if it were never designed to perform beyond it's factory specs.

Another note, as far as performance goes, the AWD system is also an added 300 lbs. What people on the Yahoo group have mentioned is that if you toss a sand bag or two in the trunk, balances out the car quite well. I owned a CRX before my wagon which is close to a 60/40 weight distribution, whereas the wagon is closer to a 55/45 from factory. The stereo I added in the back, brought the car closer to 50/50 (but most likely not exactly), although braking was effected, but has now been upgraded.

I saved the suspension from my old CRX, and swapped it into my wagon. I can honestly say that my FWD Civic wagon corners and handles better, than my CRX even did, with the exact same suspension. Phantom Grip claims to make one of their LSD's for the AWD wagon tranny. Apparently it's the same LSD that goes into other FWD Honda's. They don't make a rear LSD. for the wagon, but do make a "Spring Upgrade Kit" for the rear diff. I'm curious to see how these benefit the AWD system, but I don't think that it changes the basics of the RT4WD. Even with an LSD in the front and rear, the switching between AWD and FWD doesn't change. If anything, you might be in FWD longer, seeing as how the LSD keeps the front from slipping as much.

However, there is one time where you can lock the drive-train into AWD and keep it in AWD for as long as you want. If you were to pick up an AWD Civic wagon with a manual transmission, you'll notice that it's actually a 6-speed! To the left of 1st gear, there's an extra speed, called "SL", Super Low. I consider this more of a 0.5 speed gear, because when shifted into that gear, your locked in AWD, you have great traction, great torque, but your max speed is about 20 km/h.

All this is just my opinion. Part of me still wouldn't mind having AWD to play around with. I don't mind being proven wrong because all that would mean is you have a very well maintained, very fast AWD wagon. My advice would be to spend the extra money finding one in really good shape.

JoshDM

in the quiet and reluctant words of the virgin mary " too long"

89civicdx

My friend had a fwd wagon and it was converted to the awd and a dohc zc installed

then he hit some ice hit a curb and ripped the rear end off

clsmooth

How well did his converion / setup work? Did the car go pretty good?

89civicdx

He beat on it pretty hard and it took it... he wanted to sell the car for $2000 canadian before he wrecked it.

It wasn't heavy damage... the diff mounting broke in the rear so with some fabrication it can be fixed

I like those wagons fwd or 4wd they are very comfortable and have a lot of useful room

kyle h.

yawn

haha, good write up. amazingly i read through the hole thing. things to say cuz i can:

-it's been said that the rear diff can hold up to 210 hp before it blows up.
-it's also been said that the fwd part of the tranny is stronger than the si tranny
-it's been proven that a wagon can get the standard dose of preformance and not fall apart
-wagons are cool
-click the link in my signature for more info

89civicdx

I clicked the link and it didn't work

ohh it works now


nice site!

I like this one
http://www.angelfire.com/mech/civciw...es/greywag.jpg

and this one

http://www.angelfire.com/mech/civciw...mages/grey.jpg

[Modified by 89civicdx, 3:58 PM 4/1/2003]


[Modified by 89civicdx, 4:02 PM 4/1/2003]

altoid

wagons rock, but mine is by far the coolest ever

civicwagonman

how is yours cooler than mine altoid? i'm pushing 6lbs of boost. j/k they're all cool I got another one last week exactly the same color and everything as mine(before I made it awd). so now I have twins almost.
I took my trans apart to change some bearings and its built more like a b-series trans inside. nothing will interchange with the d-series. thats why they use the same axles as a teg. alot tougher.
Oh and super low does not lock it in awd. you're still running the driveshaft thru the viscous joint. its just a lower gear for climbing snowy hills, etc.


[Modified by civicwagonman, 7:40 PM 4/1/2003]

clsmooth

I like any Civic wagon I come across. I like my wagon cause I like being different. I wasn't arguing whether how strong the drive train was, I felt I was asking. I was wondering how the Real-Time system acts, in relation to driving technique.