ButterBall

I've been having a couple of problems with my brakes, and was looking for some input (99 civic dx HB).

I just changed the front brake pads and flushed & bled the hydraulic fluid. This was before snow fall. Now, while driving in snow, I notice that the rears are quick to lock up - as in you can barely apply enough pressure to the pedal to have only the fronts lock up without the rears following. It doesn't feel right. I'm under the impression that the rears aren't supposed to lock up like that. It that assumption correct??

When I bled the brakes, I noticed that there were still a couple of air bubbles that were coming from the front end - no bubbles from the rears. I was running low on brake fluid and couldn't get to more. Could this be causing early rear lock up problem? If not, what else could be the problem?

Also, I have a question about handbrake seizing. When it's cold out - well below zero - the rear driverside handrake will seize. The rear brake will drag and it will take a good bit of driving to free it up. I pulled the rear drums and adjusted the star nuts to different points, but the problem persisted. Any Idea what to look for here? Something with the self adjusting mechanism? Also, could it be related to the early rear lock up explained above?

TIA

97civicdx

rebleed fronts and replace your brake cables on rear. Otherwise try lubing them up real good.

ButterBall

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 97civicdx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">rebleed fronts and replace your brake cables on rear. Otherwise try lubing them up real good.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Can I just rebleed the fronts like that. Without starting at the back and going through the sequence suggested in the helms? Also, how do you know if it's the brake cables causing the problems for the rears??

98 ej8

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ButterBall &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Can I just rebleed the fronts like that. Without starting at the back and going through the sequence suggested in the helms? </TD></TR></TABLE> yeah you can bleed just the front just start from the front passanger side and then move to the driver side

ButterBall

I forgot to mention, after an instance of the rear brakes sticking (while using parking break in below 0 temps), the brake pedal takes a few pumps to adjust properly. The pedal will be very low, then will raise up to regular height after a few pumps. Does this still indicate a problem with the rear parking cable? Anymore input??

I'll rebleed the fronts and check out the parking brake today.

Thanks for all of the help.

bart2546

With the pedal taking a long time to come back up, that deffinitely sounds like you still have air/not enough fluid in the vehicle. I'd take the suggestion and adjust the rears and re-bleed the fronts.

ButterBall

The driverside parking brake cable was bad - I pulled it today and will pick up/install the new one tomorrow. So, that explains the rear lock up when using the hand brake in cold weather. That's been happening for a few years now - just slowly getting worse.

The rears are a different story. I bled the brakes all around, and made certain there was no air in the system (not much came out). The pedal felt slightly better afterwards, but the rears are still locking up early. This problem started happening distinctly after I had a rear brake job done near the end of last winter. I was thinking it was related to the bleeding, but now I'm thinking it's related to that brake job (confusing to tell whether the problem was related to the sticking hand brake), and it's just noticeable with slippery roads. I'm wondering if they put the rear shoes on wrong. If I'm understanding correctly, one shoe is bigger than the other, and the larger/longer one is supposed to go in a specific spot (front, or back - I'm not sure). Is it possible to install the shoes incorrectly? Or, will they only fit one way?

Anything else I should check? Proportioning valve? I'll try bleeding one more time, just to make certain, but other suggestions would be appreciated.

ButterBall

Alright, another question. Do you have to grease the parking brake cables before you install them?? It doesn't say in the helms.

ButterBall

forum moves too fast

dpkelly

What kind of brake pads were used? Were they semi metallic? Honda uses asbestos brake pads and probably won't grab as much. You might also have an issue with the proportion valve. Do both wheels lock up or just one?

You can also make sure they lubed where the rear brake shoes contact the backing plate. This helps them release.

ButterBall

They both used to lock. Since I removed the driverside parking cable, only the passenger side locks. I'll put the new driverside cable in when I get home, and see if the driverside starts locking again.

I wasn't going to replace the passenger side cable, but I've ordered a new one and will install it tomorrow. It might be the cause of the passenger side locking, and I figure that if one is bad, it's time to replace both.

The rear shoe material leaves a dust like the semi metallic (OEM) front brake pads do (the front pads I just installed were OEM). I'm not sure what type of rear shoes were used, since they were installed at a shop. Aftermarket something or other. Are the OEM rear shoes organic??

At this point I'm figuring I'll replace both cables and start troubleshooting again.

Any advice on lubing the cables??

Edit: Also, is anti seize compound good for lubing the points where the shoes ride the backing plate??

ButterBall

I got the new driverside parking cable on, and did some testing on dry pavement. The driver side rear doesn't seem to be locking anymore - maybe slightly(more difficult to tell when it's dry) - but the passenger side rear would be the first wheel to lock up when pressing the brake pedal. The right rear would also lock and drag if I pulled the E-brake handle, but the driverside wouldn't (still turning freely). The old passenger side E-brake cable was still connected through all of this.

Then I pulled off the passenger side parking brake cable and tested some more. Same thing as when it was connected. No difference. The cable didn't look all that bad (certainly not as bad as the old driver side cable).

Here's a picture of the skidmarks ( ):





I'm stumped. I don't think it's the proportioning valve, because I get the same result (right rear lock up) when I pull the hand brake. Meaning any decent amount of pressure (hydraulic or from the E-brake) will lock the right rear. I don't see anything wrong inside of the drum.

Suggestions please.

ButterBall

bump

Syndacate

Let us know how the install goes. You should never replace just one, they should be replaced in pairs.

dpkelly

Hmm, I"m stumped. Maybe your drum is out of round?

ButterBall

The new passengerside E-brake cable is installed. I tested it out afterwards - the same result, the right rear still locks up when pressing the brake pedal. The left rear now locks up first when using the hand brake. I'm thinking that which rear locks up first, while pulling the handbrake, only depends on how the rear drums/shoes are set with the star nut. So, the brake cables are now good and the proportioning valve still could be bad.

I ordered some brake shoe return springs, but they won't be here until monday.

Is it possible to test the proportioning valve? If I measure how much fluid comes out of each bleeder valve per single stroke of the brake pedal and compare, looking for the 60/40 ratio between linked front/rear lines, will that tell me if the proportioning valve is bad?

Anything I'm missing?






Modified by ButterBall at 11:22 PM 2/9/2007

Malakai

are the e-brake cables hard to replace cause my rear pass locks up in the cold.

ment to change it last summer and forgot.

ButterBall

Not really. I have a heated parking garage to work in though.

Malakai

like roughly how long did it take you?

might need to have the drums resurfaced. but that would not cause it too happen all the time. must be something with the proportioning.

ButterBall

If you know how to remove the shoes, it's just a matter of removing the three bolts that hold the cable to the chassis, then unhooking the cable from the parking brake lever. hour and a half.

ButterBall

Progress

I flipped the proportioning valve and reinstalled the lines, then bled the brakes. The lock problem moved over to the rear drivers side wheel. So, I'll replace that and, I believe, it will mean the end of my braking problems. Good thing too, I was about to drive the car into a wall .

dpkelly

Glad you found your problem.